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Joined: 3/14/2011
Posts: 2
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I haven't posted any of my work yet, I'm waiting for the OK from my agent since almost everything I'm working on is under contract. But, I was thinking about the feeback I'd given to others and the fact that I probably came off as WAY more harsh than I actually am. I'm curious how everyone feels about the feeback and crit process so far? Do you take it to heart? How does it compare with the close relationhips you have with your regular crit partners?
Giving feeback was REALLY hard for me because I worry about people's feelings. But really, if you're not honest, you're not helping the person you're giving feeback for. How do you guys feel about this. Is the feedback helping you at all? Do you feel bombarded with opinions? Does this compare to Authonomy? Better? Worse?
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 244
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The feedback I've given has really been an exercise for me. I haven't done much by way of critting other people's works outside of here. Mostly because the crit groups I've been in have all fallen apart for various reasons.
I say an exercise, because it really forces me to focus on being specific and careful. Not careful with feelings so much (though that is important) but careful in my reading. I think that having specific criteria to request help on is fabulous, both for the author and for the critter.
On the author's part it forces us to really look at where they think their writing might be weakest. But it also makes us swallow our pride and admit that we can't do this on our own, no matter how solitary an endeavor writing might feel at times.
On the critter's part, it forces us to sit there and really look at the nuts and bolts. In focusing on specific criteria like this, we strip away a lot of subjectivity in critiquing, coming very near to objective. (Though it's not always possible because what doesn't work for one crit buddy will work for another.) This in turn helps us better critique our own work because we've worked those muscles until they can recognize the flaws and weak points.
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Joined: 3/17/2011
Posts: 4
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On the receiving end, I truly welcome a crit that points out all the writing faults, as long as it doesn't get personal. I tend to focus on the technical side of things, and being taught or reminded of rules and tools that I've neglected only makes me a better writer. Sure, I might pout for a bit, but I'll get over it, lol.
On the giving end, I sometimes sweat over writing a crit for someone I don't know. Sometimes a piece is good enough, that anything I offer would only infringe on the author's own writing voice. If a piece contains quite a few writing errors, I tend to suggest the most basic principles for the author to work on, hoping to catch a later edit of the piece.
Peer reviews are invaluable to me because I learn as much from reading others' writing as receiving feedback on my own stories.
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Joined: 3/3/2011
Posts: 68
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I'm very thankful for having a critiquing background in the Milford/Clarion model, which stresses that you should balance praise with criticism where possible. If Book Country is a development laboratory for works-in-progress, then as a participant I feel I have a responsibility to point out places where I perceive flaws or weaknesses, but also to dole out praise where I think it is appropriate. I know that with earlier works, when most of what I got was criticism, the bits of praise and recognition were an emotional life-raft.
One of the other important things for me is that I try to couch my comments very explicitly in being *my* experience of a piece, not a universal declaration. What was unclear to me might be obvious to someone else, and so on. I can only give my perception of a work, and my perception of how other people might receive it. To claim more would be arrogant and probably counter-productive to the process.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 214
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Thus far, I’ve found the reviews I’ve received really valuable – especially since I’m working on my first revision. It helps to have this information now rather than later.
And, to be honest, a lot of the feedback I received was that which I suspected I’d receive. I’m never happy with my work 100 percent. NEVER. I don’t expect that I’ll ever churn out something and think, “Ah … this is perfect!” But “as close as I can get is acceptable.”
I hope that I don’t come across as too harsh. At times, I suspect that I do, because I work with editors on a daily basis, and some of these people are tough customers. They’re not always polite when they give me feedback or ask me to revise the product. The editor in me (have worked on the literary end before) really wants to start redlining and restructuring and help other writers really go to town. I see promise in almost every good idea.
Whenever someone writes a novel, this is a form of self-expression, and self-expression should never be denied anyone. What I hope to impart is, “This is how you can express yourself better.” Ultimately, books = products. Do you want your product to sell? If enough people aren’t relating to my product -- or if they say it needs to be stronger in certain areas – I do listen. ☺
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Joined: 3/11/2011
Posts: 4
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I haven't critiqued anything yet. I think I misunderstood the premise of Book Country when I signed up. I thought we would be able to critique smaller portions of work such as chapters like they do on Compuserve Lit Forum.
I'm going to try to stay active here, but reading books and commenting on novel length works the way I do would take me forever. Migraines and deadlines are going to keep my reading to a minimum for a while.
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Joined: 3/17/2011
Posts: 88
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@Julie, hi. I can't imagine any writer not being grateful for whatever you had to say about their work, even if you couldn't get through the whole piece.
And as I've discovered, not only do a lot of folk here post just a few chapters, but also there's a 30,000 word limit--I believe--on the total length of of the books we get to read on the site.
-Kevin
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 244
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I think that 30K limit is on books from people you haven't "connected" with. But I could be entirely wrong on that one.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 214
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@Julie
Most folks (as far as I can see) are only uploading 1-3 chapters at a time for the most part. This makes critiquing them manageable. Then you find the few books that you LOVE and wish the author would upload more, darnit -- that's the danger of Book Country. It's like ... free books! 
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 412
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Ooo baby, be rough with me! No, but seriously, the harsher the better, as long as its CONSTRUCTIVE. not just, I don't like this, but, I dont like this BECAUSE. how else do we get better if not being told where we fail?
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 214
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@Alexander,
Well, dude, I was gonna say, "You asked for it, you got it" (and possibly add "Toyota," just to be really dorky). But you don't have a book up.
Perche non --?
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Joined: 3/17/2011
Posts: 88
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@LBlankenship,
Hey! When I open your book to read it, the right margin cuts off the last several words in each line! Hope you can fix it, 'cause I want to read your piece.
-HK
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Joined: 3/14/2011
Posts: 80
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I have my friends to sugar coat things. I'd rather people here be honest, but I don't think they have to be nasty about it (not that anyone has been, just saying...). There's always at least one good point, so be sure to add in the compliments with the criticisms.
I think people appreciate you telling them if they have a major problem rather than glossing over it and then they go to share and find out later through bad reviews or some blunt nasty person.
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Joined: 3/12/2011
Posts: 376
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I can't say I *like* harsh critique, but I do appreciate it. I might even *need* it. Sometimes being polite with me doesn't get the point across.
Thus far I've got one critique on Crowbar Girl (Thanks Monday!) and I got a very different response from my normal critique partners. Same general direction (POV / Timing), but the character with the biggest issue changed.
Honestly, I like being told when a reader likes or dislikes something, even if they don't know why. It tells me where to concentrate and what not to mess with when doing rewrites, if nothing else. "Why" is better, of course, but just the 'good / bad' feedback is useful.
As for the feedback I post, apologies in advance if I seem harsh. I don't mean to be. In fact, I try to follow what I just described - what I like, what I don't like, and (if possible) why (on both) and recommendations on how to fix it (on the 'don't like).
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Joined: 3/7/2011
Posts: 38
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I think feedback can be given honestly without hurting someone's feelings.
Doing critiques here makes me a bit nervous because I haven't done it other than my personal critique group. I feel my crit skills aren't yet very strong, but I'm sure that's one thing BC will help me improve.
I aim to be honest but I will never use words like garbage to describe someone's work. If a work is something that isn't my cup of tea, I wouldn't do a critique on it. I feel that if it's a genre I don't read or write, I'm not going to be able to give useful feedback anyway.
I attempt to start with what I think are the strengths and what I like about a work, then what areas I think are weak and why. I think stating the why you don't like something or think it's not working is important. Don't just say, "I don't like it." Then I try to give a few suggestions for improvement.
I don't mind being critiqued hard as long as it's constructive. Tearing apart a person's work because you like to do that or it makes you feel better about your own work only demeans the person giving the criticism.
This is just the beta stage, and already I think some of the books are getting lost in the shuffle, like mine (yes, that is a shameless promotion... oops.. I meant to say clever marketing ploy).
I think as humans we have a tendency to start at the top of lists and work our way down. Or we think we would rather read something with four stars instead of no stars. It's obvious that books closer to the top of the list are getting a lot more traffic than books nearer the end of the list.
I have set a goal to look for the books that haven't gotten any reviews yet. To some degree, I think we're all curious what everyone else here thinks of work. It does take some time to read an excerpt, then write a review. I like to do an initial reading, jotting down my first impression. Then, on another day, I will do a second read-through, refine the critique, then post. I probably have more time to devote to this process than a lot of others do; so I could imagine it takes some people a week or more to do one review.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 412
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Lisa marie... yes i do!
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 214
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@Alexander
Okay, this is weird. I could have sworn that when I checked your profile, I saw no book. Now I do.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 244
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Ava, I totally agree. There are a lot of books that are getting lost in the shuffle. I worry about this when the site goes live and we have thousands of people putting books up and putting new drafts as they get feedback (assuming they get any at all).
I wonder if there'll be a drop in the length or quality of book critiques when the site goes live and there's a surge of new books.
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Joined: 3/30/2011
Posts: 8
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I've only critiqued one excerpt so far, and I really liked it...
I should point out that I'm largely unconcerned with small grammatical errors and typos because (as a bookseller) I'm used to reading uncorrected proofs and know they'd get ironed out in the editing process anyway. Same thing for overused words and redundancies (unless they are particularly glaring even from a small extract).
I tend to focus on what I like about something first and foremost, and then look to what niggled me.
I'm wary about being harsh on other people, in general, but when it comes to my own work - I know it's flawed, and I want to know about the flaws I haven't spotted yet. For the draft I have up (for example): I know there are too many characters and I know the pacing has severe issues (especially further on), I'm worried about one character being more plot-generator than fully-fleshed out individual...and that's only off the top of my head. I'm working on a draft that addresses those issues, but it's not ready for consumption yet (big sweeping changes). I'm really interested in seeing what I've missed and could also fix in this new draft. To be honest, I'm looking for some tough eyes!
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 412
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yeah... thats my fault lisa marie. fixed though!
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Joined: 2/27/2011
Posts: 18
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I loved several of the ideas in the reviews of the one chapter I uploaded. In fact, I revised it based on those ideas. SO WHAT NOW? How do I go about letting the reviewers know that the chapter has been revised (in hopes that they will read it again & comment). I also added 3 additional chapters and would love to have comments from those same reviewers as well. HOW CAN I COMMUNICATE WITH MY PREVIOUS REVIEWERS AND ASK THEM TO COME BACK AND CHECK OUT THE CHANGES AND NEWLY LOADED CONTENT?
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Joined: 2/27/2011
Posts: 353
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The notifications are active now so if your previous reviewers are actually following your book, they should see that you have uploaded a new draft. If they aren't following your book, you'll just have to hope that they come back to look at your book again on their own.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 214
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Awesome, Colleen! I've been waiting for this feature. Beats clicking on the books to see if there are updates. 
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Joined: 2/27/2011
Posts: 18
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Colleen.....sounds good. So how can we tell who is following our books?
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Joined: 2/27/2011
Posts: 353
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You can't unless you are connected to them. We set this up so that members' privacy would be respected. This is also the reason we do not have private messaging. One of the many things that people dislike about some of the other online writing workshops (not naming names here) is the constant spam some members received from other members asking them to review their books. It was often cited as the reason most people left these communities.
The way it works here is that it is left up to the reviewer to seek out and give additional feedback if he or she wishes to.
Likewise, if another member wishes to connect with you, you have the final say.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 102
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I absolutely love the feedback I've received here so far. The reviewers I've come across have been both respectful and constructive. Amanda, you were one of my reviewers. I had no issue with your feedback, nor did I find it harsh or overly critical.
My other critique group is an in-person one so I always suspect people are being nicer to me than is perhaps warranted. I like this online forum because I believe I will get more insight here than I can from my other group.
I enjoy critiquing, not only because I get to read a lot of books, but also because I learn far more from critiquing than I ever do in a classroom/lecture setting, or from reading books on writing. When I critique, I strive to tell the person what I liked as well as what I didn't, what I think is working and what I think isn't. But more importantly, for what I don't like, I figure out why and give suggestions for resolving the issue. When I figure out something like that myself, I never forget it, and rarely make the same mistake in my own writing. In my opinion, it's a win-win for both the critiquer and the critiqued.
I've yet to receive any hateful tweets so I hope the people who I've critiqued found my comments helpful and constructive. If not, I hope they tell me that by commenting on my critique.
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Joined: 4/6/2011
Posts: 29
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I haven't gotten any feedback yet, but have given some. I try to find something good to say when I do any critique. Everyone is trying hard, and that deserves respect. I try not to pull punches, though, and I'm stingy with stars.
I find the way these are broken up into topics is a bit hard to get used to -- normally when I crit, I do a "big things" and a "small things" section, with structure/character/high-level stuff vs. any persistent line-level problems (when possible, working in the actual document so as to physically highlight issues). This is a new way to organize my thoughts, so that's interesting.
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Joined: 4/3/2011
Posts: 20
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I really value critical, detailed critique. The "this is great" or "this is awful" or "this is about what I expected from your description" don't help me at all. I don't mind having people be harsh at all -- I know very well I am not going to win an Edgar with the book I have posted here at the moment!
My own critiques can come across more harsh than they perhaps need to be. I try to find something posiitve to say when I am being negative, but sometimes I get very frustrated by my reading and it's hard to keep in mind that people may not be ready to hear everything at once!
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 222
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I am a huge fan of receiving in depth critiques, and I hope that I give good, in depth critiques in return.
I like being complimented as much as the next person, but learning how to fix my problems is much, much more important to me than knowing someone liked it. That said, If there are only negatives mentioned, I might ask if there was anything the reviewer liked at all... If there isn't, I'm likely to take their words with a few extra grains of salt because someone who sees no potential in a piece may not be able to look past their dislikes to see any promise behind the work. (Just like I can't stand The Song of Ice and Fire as a book series... I just don't like Martin's writing.)
So far, no one has told me I was a horrid reviewer or anything of that nature yet, and I hope this day doesn't come because I like critiquing and reviewing people, especially when I feel that I can be really honest with them.
But also stay polite. I try to.
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Joined: 4/27/2011
Posts: 608
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I'm new to this site, but have already received valuable feedback from various writers working here. In addition, I’ve posted a number of my own critiques.
I believe that in order to give a good critique, you must first and foremost offer criticism that doesn't do violence to the writer's vision or voice. Rather than approach each piece of writing with a pre-conceived set of rules or iron-clad commandments that must be followed in each and every instance (Eliminate all or most adverbs! Eschew the use of the semi-colon! Show, don’t tell!) I try to offer criticism that strengthens, not weakens, the authorial voice.
This is not to say that there aren’t, indeed, rules for good fiction writing, merely that I ask myself before offering a particular piece of criticism: will this hurt, or strengthen the writing being critiqued? I am at pains to communicate to the writer that my opinion is merely that: an opinion.
I believe that there are really only three kinds of criticism: (1) that which the writer immediately recognizes as valid, (2) that which the writer immediately recognizes as being dead wrong, and (3) that which the writer only recognizes as being valid days, weeks or months later. Category #3 is the trickiest for me: more times than I am willing to admit I have returned to a bit of writing I originally loved only to realize: good grief, the criticism I received about issue X was correct! However, I should also note—as I’m sure others have experienced—that there are as many times I’ve received criticism that is so wildly wrong-headed, tone deaf or off the mark as to be laughable. (Not on this site, though.) Historically speaking, I think of Hemingway taking cheap shots at F. Scott Fitzgerald, Edmund Wilson dismissing H. P. Lovecraft as a hack, Toni Morrison’s hurt over her novel The Bluest Eye getting reviewed and misread as an extended orgy of self-hatred and racial loathing. If it happened to them . . .
When I read a piece of fiction for pleasure, I have a couple of personal yardsticks I use to judge the writing:
(1) Does the writer invoke the senses: not only sight but sound, smell, touch and taste, to put me in their world and bring it alive? I want to go there when I’m reading; help me make the trip!
(2) Ray Bradbury advised writers to “stay drunk on metaphor”; I only ask: do the metaphors work? Are they evocative, poetic and appropriate?
(3) Is the writing polished, tonally consistent and professional? I don’t expect a high-literary style to transmogrify into literary minimalism, but I am equally startled when a hard-boiled, noun-verb-direct object style of writing suddenly bursts into byzantine purple prose. Don’t get me wrong: I love the various literary styles and tonal shadings of Poe, Hemingway, Lovecraft, Harlan Ellison, Nabokov, Stephen King, Bukowski and Robert E. Howard—just not all at the same time, please!
(4) I actively work to highlight and praise the writer for particularly strong or otherwise well-constructed pieces of writing. It is maddening—absolutely maddening and dismaying to me—that so many writers fail to acknowledge or salute their peers when they encounter a well-wrought paragraph, a startling or pitch-perfect sentence or phrase, an exact or cunningly-placed word. It seems that we’ll all discuss and debate themes, plot, POV and other mechanics of writing endlessly, but this most essential element of the craft—the cunningly-wrought and artfully-executed sentence—is given short-shrift. (It was a famous genre writer—forgive me, I can’t recall exactly who right now; it might have been SK—who once said that they hugged a stranger at a book signing. Why? The person said, “I love the way you wrote chapter X; the language was beautiful.” I may not remember who the genre writer was, but I remember WHAT he said: “You never get that at a book signing. No one ever, ever wants to talk about the language.”) Curious, no?
(5) I try to balance negative criticism with positive criticism. Actually, I personally believe a 60/40 mix to be about right. Let’s face it: negative criticism hurts. Yes, it is necessary, unavoidable and critical to one’s growth as a writer—but it still flays the soul and pinpricks color to the cheeks. I try in my own critiques of others’ writing to highlight everything I enjoyed or otherwise found aesthetically pleasing in their work, before proceeding into “the Negative Zone.” Because let’s face it: every writer out there, professional or otherwise—every damn one of them—envisions a cheering section (or at least their ideal reader, the one who totally “gets them”) in their minds when they write. I try to be that reader for the critiqued writer, so that I don’t do wanton, ill-thought out or otherwise ignorant damage to their vision and voice.
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Joined: 3/11/2011
Posts: 29
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I truly appreciate the criticism I've received here on BC. Most of the readers have commented on the same faults in a given piece, showing that I have a consistent problem, not just something that is up to individual tastes. Also, the complaints seem to be similar from piece to piece. AND (even better) some of the critiques even highlight problems that I'm having in my novel/novella revisions! It's pretty awesome. I look at what someone said here about setting and it lines up with something an editor said about another piece entirely.
This means that I, as a writer, am not perfect (duh) but have a specific area to work on. I get to learn and grow. And to do that, oh shucks, I have to write more.
I look forward to the longer, lower-starred reviews more than the 5-star "this was awesome" reviews. Maybe I'm a masochist in that, but I welcome critique. (As long as it's done without being malicious, that is.)
On the flip side, the praise I've gotten here has shown me that I AM doing something right. validation is always nice.
As to the giving of critique here... I felt bad at first, because in honoring the Golden Rule, I worried that I was being too harsh or nitpicky. But, it seems that a lot of people here are thick-skinned and like-minded because the reviews have been received as helpful. That's really what I try for: Helpful and constructive.
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Joined: 4/28/2011
Posts: 60
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I'm less concerned here with harsh criticisms than overly glowing ones. The critiques I have admired, given to me or others, are the ones that offer the author an avenue towards improvement. That's the whole point of this site. What does bother me, and I've noticed quite a few of these, are people who are giving out 5 star ratings and not critiquing at all. I've sometimes clicked on books with 5-star reviews, thinking, "Wow, this really must be something," only to be disappointed because the reviewer didn't read the work with an eye towards critiquing the piece and offering suggestions for improvement.
I wonder if there is a way to educate people about how to review work before they're allowed to post. Sorry, that's the dictator in me coming out. It happens.
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Joined: 3/11/2011
Posts: 29
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@LR Waterbury: I've noticed that some people take "review" to mean "critique" where they offer constructive ideas for improvement while pointing out what the author does well. Some people, though, seem to take "review" to mean "book report". I've seen many that read like a summary and glowing praise without any sort of meat that hints at improvements. And, I have to say, the few "glowing" reviews that I've gotten perturb me. It's nice to know that someone enjoyed a piece, but I'd love direction on how to make it shine.
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In those cases where it comes off as a "book report" with no real constructive feedback, be sure to thumbs it down as non-constructive! This will help people learn to gear their reviews better.
Also, you can absolutely make a comment on those reviews asking for some info about what someone didn't like or thought could use work. Unless a person has given 5 stars AND a glowing review, there MUST be something they noticed and didn't like or didn't think was as good as it could be--otherwise they wouldn't have rated it the way they did!
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 214
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RE:
“I'm less concerned here with harsh criticisms than overly glowing ones.”
I think that’s because a lot of the time, reviewers let their subjectivity cloud their judgment. Sometimes I’ll read a book on BC that I really do like insanely and want to give it a five-star review. Whenever I do, I make myself take a step back and think about it objectively. Will it appeal to a wide demographic? A niche demographic? Is it written at a level appropriate for the mean population? How will the average reader perceive the characters – can most people relate to them? Or … is it just (subjectively) me?
It’s entirely possible to find something objectively wonderful and not like it at all. My definition of h-e-double hockey sticks is being forced to read Raymond Carver. OMG, that’s about as enervating as watching the second hand on a clock. But, let’s face it: Ray Carver is absolutely brilliant. Objectively, he writes flawlessly. So do a lot of genre writers whose work I would never pick up and read.
I have my roots in literary fiction, highly lyrical. So subjectively, I find anything “hookish,” too fast-paced, too simplistically constructed and lacking in description none too engaging. It’s very hard for me to remember at times that genre fiction is completely different and has its own rules -- as well as its own readers. It’s a challenge for me to approach this from an objective (helpful) viewpoint at times.
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Joined: 5/11/2011
Posts: 22
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I am new to this site and am glad to see the same general consensus on critiques, which is - bring it on. Being new to the critiquing process, I am eager to give and receive constructive feedback. We all have the same goal - to create the best story possible. To do that, we need an unbiased eye to tell us what we need to hear, without robbing us of our drive to continue.
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