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Joined: 5/10/2011
Posts: 69
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From what I understand
of Genre Fiction, the stories are supposed to be plot driven more than
character driven. However, I have found that in what I enjoy reading, as well
as what I enjoy writing, a precarious balance must be struck between the two.
Obviously for the sake of pacing and structure and keeping a reader engaged,
the plot has to keep moving along in an interesting way, but I find myself writing
stories that are really driven by the character's development and psychological
process and the plot seems to take a back seat. Perhaps I am not a "Genre
Fiction" writer. (Which would be a bummer, in that I am thoroughly
enjoying being a part of the BC community and it is a Genre Fiction site.) Are
there specific categories of Genre Fiction that lend themselves to more
character driven stories, or is that particular rule one that isn't really challenged?
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 222
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I enjoy character driven stories as much as the next person, but if there is no plot, there really isn't a story, either. Character development 'stories' don't tend to go anywhere, in my opinion. There are a few stories that defy this, but they use a very tenuous grip on a simplistic plot to do this. JUST enough of a plot to say it is there where the characters drive the story.
That said, characters should ALWAYS be driving a story, even 'plot' driven ones. Without characters, there is no plot. It is the characters that make the plot come to life, it is the characters that ultimately decide how the plot goes.
Almost every great story I have read has been a seamless merge of character and plot. Without one or the other, stories just... feel stagnant to me.
Plotting is a lot harder for some people than others. I tend to naturally think of conflicts and plot mechanisms that my characters would naturally fall into. Perhaps something that might help you is to focus on the conflicts that are caused by your characters with one major event for your climax. As long as these conflicts keep pushing towards that climax, you don't need to really worry about a plot. The biggest thing about plot, for me, is the presence of conflict that keeps the story moving along. If it is just two characters talking to one another, I have a very difficult time 'getting into it'. Sure, you can develop characters like this, but the events and decisions a character makes in regard to conflict is really where I feel like I get to *know* the characters.
Plot doesn't have to be a messy tangle of kung-fu. It just needs to present a chain of delicious conflict complete with resolution at the end to make all that conflict worth the baking (err reading) time. (I want cookies.)
Just my opinion, of course. :3
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 214
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There's a name for character-driven books: literary fiction!
... or memoirs, autobiographies, biographies and similar.
One thing that I read on an agent's blog — an agent I really respect — is that writers should not rely on the characters' internal, emotional journey to carry a book, and I agree.
Like RJ says, there has to be a balance between the two. I tend to eschew certain types of romance novels because the characterization is thin and/or relies on stereotypes. Actionable plots intrigue me a lot more than character-driven plots, and I find this true even when I go to the movies. I'm far more likely to choose a suspense/thriller or romantic comedy than I am a serious drama.
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Joined: 5/10/2011
Posts: 69
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I think you--or the agent who wrote that on his/her blog--makes an excellent point. As this is all so new to me, what first came out when I started to write was basically exactly what he/she said NOT to do. I was so enamored with the MFC journey that I got stuck writing what was in her head.
I agree a balance must be struck. It is a process I am working on 
Btw, I am MUCH more likely to choose a suspense/thriller action driven movie!
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Joined: 5/10/2011
Posts: 69
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@Lisa, my first response was for you, and I didn't tag you. Sorry for being confusing.
@RJ it is helpful to think of it in terms of conflict. Part of my issue is getting my MFC internal conflict on its feet. The conflicts are there, but I have to be careful not to let her internal reaction to the external conflicts she faces end up being one big long stream of consciousness.
I am also wrestling with chronology--which seriously affects my plotting. I had originally envisioned the entire story as a big long flashback, but it didn't work "on paper" so I had to back to the storyboard and re-organize.
I wish I was more of an outline driven person. I just find it so difficult to do. @Lisa I am pretty sure you have the whole thing down to a science! Wish I was a bit more like that!
@RJ, I don't have cookies, but did make some homemade protein bars today that actually taste pretty good. So, I’m sending you a cyber-cookie
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 214
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@Tawni,
The way I look at characterization is like this:
Characters have to have some characteristic that makes the reader relate to them in certain very broad terms. For example, women relate to other women who've been cheated on by their man. Or perhaps who can't find a balance between career and love or who feel left out because the rest of their friends are married, but there doesn't seem to be anyone left for them. That kind of thing.
Once your characters start to internalize, there's a big danger of losing the reader, because they might not relate to the specific nuances of how the character perceives the issue that plagues them. If that makes any sense at all. (!)
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Joined: 4/28/2011
Posts: 13
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I don't really distinguish plot from character. I get the technical difference, but in my opinion one isn't possible without the other. I don't care what events surround a character if their personalities are dull and flat in response. But I don't want to see a character sit and mull over something--I want them to do something. To react.
As RJ said, conflict is the key. I think what we're discussing is more external vs. internal conflict. Even in that case, in my experience a plot without external conflict is boring. Even in plots revolving largely around character development, there is generally conflict with other characters with different motivations. Without external conflict of some kind, how does internal change come about?
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Joined: 3/11/2011
Posts: 156
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Genre fiction will have a plot, but frankly, if a writer is unable to support that plot with interesting and well developed characters, they are likely to see nothing but rejection letters.
I think the whole "genre fiction is plot driven, literary fiction is character driven" cliche is something that arose from college creative writing programs. Unfortunately, the end result seems to be that plot has some how become a four letter word with inexperienced writers attempting to escape it at every turn. I see far too many stories overloaded with backstory to explain the characters who then spend the bulk of the manuscript wandering around looking for something to do.
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Joined: 5/10/2011
Posts: 69
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@Karrie, I really like the last question you posed. At first glance it seems "obvious" however; I think it’s one of the questions that I need to have on a post it and stuck to my computer screen! I definitely have a tendency to get stuck in narrative for too long!
@Marie, that is an interesting observation regarding college programs. I didn't study creative writing in college, so I don't have any first-hand experience with that arena. It seems counter-intuitive for them to create that kind of imbalance in their methodology. Do you think that was an accidental by-product of teaching methods/curriculum, or intentionally arrived upon result of academic structure that (perhaps) would focus on a more "literary" approach due simply to the academic nature of the setting of university?
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Joined: 3/11/2011
Posts: 156
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The problem with Creative Writing programs is that the concepts taught are not necessarily out of balance when taken in scope with the entire curriculum. The problem tends to arise when students disseminate the teachings in fragmented form outside the classroom. So, while a professor may offer a simple explanation of genre fiction as being more plot driven and literary fiction more character driven, they also are teaching an entire semester workshop on how to write. Usually literary fiction, but there is a whole lot more to literary fiction than being character driven. Just as having a plot doesn't mean genre fiction can skimp on character development.
Keep in mind that most professors teaching creative writing classes in college don't have a background in genre fiction. For the most part, college professors will have a background in literary fiction, which is considered more the proper pursuit of academia. To obtain their degree and more importantly a position at a university, they will most likely have established a background writing and offering criticism on literary works.
This isn't necessarily a bad thing. You don't really need a degree to write great genre fiction. Oh, you might want to do some workshops, go to conferences, work with critique groups, and such to improve your skill. But you don't need a formal degree. And if you get a degree in Creative Writing, it doesn't prevent you from writing whatever you want when you leave the program. I have an MA in Creative Writing. It doesn't stop me from writing paranormal mysteries or even some gay erotic romance. Those have plots. And I have a whole lot of fun with characters.
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Joined: 5/10/2011
Posts: 69
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I have been considering going back to school, so this is actually great food for thought. My BA is in Theatre, and though I took more than your basic Lit and writing classes, and more than my share of screen play/ playwriting classes, I always feel like I lack a bit of 'polish'. Perhaps I should chectk out some well regarded conferences or workshops first.
I digress a bit from the original thread, but none-the-less, thanks for the input!
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 244
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Workshops and conferences are cheaper than another degree. So is studying the masters on your own outside the classroom.
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Joined: 5/10/2011
Posts: 69
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Excellent point, Steph. Do you know anyone who has done the 'outside the classroom' thing?
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Joined: 3/11/2011
Posts: 156
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Probably more than half the writers I know have learned "outside the classroom." Though they probably have taken a lit course or two in college. As for studying the masters - I think Kindle offers many classics as a free download. Or you can check out Project Gutenberg http://www.gutenberg.org/. I also love http://www.sacred-texts.com/
If you are at the age where you're starting college or if you need another degree and you enjoy writing, then getting a degree in writing might be a good choice. After all, you're going to be in college anyway, so you might as well do what you enjoy. But if you're thinking of going back to college to get a writing degree to help you're writing, you have to remember that for the average BA, you will take a whole load of non-writing courses to meet the general education requirements. And you'll find yourself studying and writing literary fiction. You won't be learning techniques for fantasy or romance or even mystery (oddly, the one genre I could get past a literary workshop).
Now, for advanced degrees, you have to stop and consider what an advanced degree is really good for. Yes, it gives me that MA to put on the resume, which isn't a bad thing. An MA is also required to teach or adjunct at the college level, so if you want to teach, it's a good choice. It can also be useful if you want to pursue a career in the publishing field or want to find an internship editing a small literary magazine.
And yes, you will take workshops where you work on your writing with really tough critiquers. But unless you need the advanced degree for a career move, it really is cheaper just to find some great workshops to take than it is to pay for the whole degree.
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Joined: 5/7/2011
Posts: 42
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Tawni,
Personally, I think the plot-driven vs. character-driven argument is a bit of a fallacious one. As RJ pointed out, all stories ought to have both, preferably in equal parts.
I think there are two things to be said here.
First, are you leaning toward literary or commercial fiction? That will help you considerably when writing your stories. If you're more intrigued by the power of the characters to driven the plot, then you're writing somewhat more literary work. Read some H. G. Wells and H. P. Lovecraft; they both loved to talk about the psychology of the world through their characters. If you're more interested in pushing the story through plot and having your characters go along for the ride, then you're probably writing more commercial fiction.
That being said, it leads me to my second point: are you drawn toward Hard or Soft Science Fiction (or Speculative, if you will)? Hard SF tends to be driven by technology, or the populace's reaction to it, and thus can also tend to be more plot-driven. The origins of Steampunk (my genre of choice) lie within that: technology is the focus of the plot, but the characters are intrinsically tied to that technology in some way, and thus are part of the makeup of the world and story. Soft SF, on the other hand, deals heavily with psychology, politics, religion, etc. Your stories are going to deal with more character-driven, idea-driven stories.
Just some food for thought. I think you can certainly write literary genre fiction (just look at Michael Chabon -- Pulitzer AND Nebula). It really just depends on what your goal is.
Cheers,
J Boone Dryden
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 244
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Pretty much every writer friend I know has done the outside the classroom thing, as far as not having a fancy degree in writing. (Have never understood the point of one of those. They don't put money in your pocket any more than my English master's degree.) I have one writer friend who studied accounting in college (or something similar) and I don't think she took more English classes than were necessary to complete her generals. Pretty much, if you're a reader you're a studier of the craft of writing even if you're not consciously doing it.
What's most important is that you find what works best for you. I'm a visual learner. I blogged last Friday on one way I study characterization. I analyze characters on my favorite tv shows to no end. But my method won't always be the best method for another writer. Everyone's brains are wired a little differently so you have to figure out what's best for you. Maybe you're an auditory learner so if you could find craft books on tape (figuratively speaking) and listen to those you'll learn more than I would. I don't learn much if I try to read a book on craft, but studying its implementation in television and film (and in other books, but the visual thing really hits home with the first two), works for me.
What works for you? Answer that and you'll figure out what is the best path for your studies, whether it's going back to school (for the structure and additional perspectives that graduate level English coursework can provide) or taking your own path through learning by studying the classics or whatever form works best for you.
Now, back to the first question in the topic, I think that your plot has to be driven by your characters but your characters have to be impacted by your plot. Without both, it falls flat. (Or at the very least runs a great risk of doing so.)
Take the Harry Potter books. The plot of the seven books is that Voldemort wants to regain a body and finish what he started before Harry became "The Boy Who Lived." Harry wants to stop this. But Harry's character had to be informed by and inform the plot in a believable way so as to make the conclusion inevitable. Change one thing about the plot and Harry's character changes; change one thing about either Harry or Voldemort's character and the plot changes.
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Joined: 8/9/2011
Posts: 12
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Since the main questions were answers so beautifully I thought I'd throw my 10 pennies at your comment that, "...I find myself writing stories that are really driven by the character's development and psychological process and the plot seems to take a back seat."
I used to do this, oh man did I do this... all the time! But realizing that I had to get on with the plot at some point, I decided to allow myself the privilege of indulging in a no-holds-barred character development session once a week. I sat down and slammed out page after page of dialog and narrative devoted solely to them. Then, I put it away in a folder. What I was amazed to find was, when I needed it, those "notes" were there - like gems ready to be plucked out and placed in the perfect spot. Plus, I could develop my plot much easier knowing I had satisfied my need to bring an important part of my characters to life, whether or not it was the right time to showcase it in the story.
As far as plot-driven vs. character driven - pth. Have you ever noticed how people will say it's one or the other, even in the same book? Sometimes it is how you read it too. Sometimes it even goes back and forth in the same book! One chapter will be character driven then the next is all plot moving... it ALL comes down to the balance in the end.
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Joined: 5/10/2011
Posts: 69
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Interesting process @M Tucker I like the idea of giving myself the creative license to indulge my character development and then pull from those results when needed. I may try that out. Thanks for sharing!
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