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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 214
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In romance novels, characters can’t be too perfect. The
widowed heroine struggles with her attachment to memories of her dead husband.
The hero is hardened from his experience in active military duty. They have
flaws that prevent them from opening their hearts to one another – but, they’re
always “acceptable” flaws.
What, to your mind, are some unacceptable character flaws? There are the
obvious, such as being addicted to alcohol or drugs, being way too promiscuous,
having a gambling problem, serving hard time for a crime he/she actually did commit.
Where and how do you draw the line between which flaws are
permissible and which ones alienate your readers?
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Joined: 3/14/2011
Posts: 5
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Cheating. Once my H/H have committed, he or she can't go off and boff someone else behind the others back. If they want to engage in a manage/I like to watch/whatever, as long as it's consensual with both H/H present and willing that's all good. When the H/H goes off and has sex behind the others back, that's when I kill them off and rewrite the story with a new H/H that isn't a douche. 
Oh, and beating the H/H in a non consensual way. Ie, not BDSM but just an abuser. Once again they will be killed off and rewritten.
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Joined: 3/11/2011
Posts: 156
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I love this question. But I was just thinking through some flaws and remembered that Elizabeth Peter's "romantic hero" in her Vicky Bliss novels is a jewel thief. Though I don't remember if he's served time. And of course there's a continual flirtation between him and the FMC rather than a traditional HEA.
For me, the flaw has as much to do with attitude as with the act itself. I remember one case where my problem wasn't that the supposed hero had a mistress, which might have been expected in the historical context. It was that when he wanted to marry, he just casually told the mistress that he was going find a place for her with a friend. The author seemed a bit confused on what the reader would think of her hero obtaining a woman of color as a mistress, using her sexually, and then passing her on to a friend.
Oh, the author is currently self-published.
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Joined: 3/17/2011
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I agree that any kind of cheating, physical/emotional abuse, as a character flaw is off limits. However, I would also say that it's all how it's portrayed. A hero with a murky past, even one who was physically violent, can still work for me as long as the author motivates him well, and makes readers believe that he will overcome those flaws.
But, then again, I guess a character's past is different from the present/story. If a hero was doing that kind of thing while forging a relationship with the heroine, then I would find it distasteful. I just have a soft spot for those dark, tortured heroes who are trying hard to overcome a tough past. 
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Joined: 3/13/2011
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I remember reading big fat historical romances back in the 70s and 80s (when they were still known as "bodice rippers") where the heroine would somehow manage to fall in love with the hero, even though their first sexual encounter was little more than rape. This was just unacceptable to me - how could a woman fall in love with her rapist, even if he supposedly reformed later? I also read a fantasy novel, not that long ago, where the heroine fell in love with the man who tortured her repeatedly, because she learned he was under the influence of dark magic when he did it. Again - not OK!
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Joined: 3/16/2011
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Ooo! Carla brought up the old bodice rippers! Yup, been there, read that. I was really young at the time, so it left a sort of "yick" impression on my burgeoning sexual psyche. :O
I find this question particularly intriguing because some of my female friends who are taking a stab at romance writing have some strange idea of what constitutes "acceptable flaws."
I define "acceptable flaw" as anything that the hero doesn't bring on himself. In other words, he fights to defend himself (or a loved on), but he doesn't go out and murder someone. The heroine might be struggling financially, but it's because she's taking care of a family -- not because she gambles her life's savings away.
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Joined: 3/11/2011
Posts: 156
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Hmm, but are they really flaws if the character doesn't bring them on himself (or herself). For me a character flaw has to be something a character has some level of control over. If the hero has to fight to defend himself, that isn't a flaw. And struggling financially isn't really an internal flaw either. It's a circumstance. For it to be a character flaw, it has to be internal to the character.
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Joined: 3/11/2011
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Carla, you are so right--which explains why I never understood the whole Luke and Laura "romance" on GH all those years ago. He raped her, then later they got married in this huge wedding that all these women SWOONED over and they were suddenly soulmates? Not. A. Chance. Sooooo not romantic in the slightest.
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Joined: 3/11/2011
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I remember the whole Luke/Laura thing. It didn't do a thing for me. But that was the era when I also really couldn't get into romance novels because I was pursuing college and a career and the women in romance novels were waiting around for marriage and babies.
Unacceptable flaw for the FMC these days - wimpiness. Your FMC shall not sit around looking pretty but useless while waiting for a man to rescue or abduct her, marry her and give her babies. If Fabio the Pirate king kidnaps her, she'll kick him in the balls. (Note: if this is an erotic romance, she may then tie him to the bed and tell him exactly what she expects from a good pirate lover.)
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Joined: 3/12/2011
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I think it depends entirely on what story you're trying to tell, as well as the reasons behind the flaws. Then again, as my romance writing friends keep telling me, I don't write romance. Of course, my sci-fi and fantasy reading friends keep telling me I *am* writing romance, because almost everything I write has a romantic element somewhere.
At any rate, I was wondering; were you asking the question from a reader's or writer's perspective? Because I think in the former case the answers will be a *lot* more subjective.
As a reader: when I was 18, I wouldn't have included cheating; I grew up on Heinlein. When I was 28, I would have; I'd had someone cheat on me. When I was 38, it would have been off the list again, replaced with 'emotional unavailability'; I don't so much care what's been inside her or when, so much as whether she'll be there when I need her.
As a writer: I can't see *anything* as a non-starter, because I've seen people pull off just about every flaw in the book and make it work.
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Joined: 3/11/2011
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Since romance novels are for a female audience (and generally written by women), violence against women is something that most publishers are going to find a problem. I don't really know any publishers actively looking for the rape-fantasy novels of the 70s and 80s. In fact, most of the readers & acquisitions editors I know are young enough to have missed that era and really react strongly against it.
Oh, I should note that in some romance sub-genres, SF being one, you're likely to see military action where women fight as good as any man. That's not violence against women.
A character flaw has to be an aspect that is internal to the character that plays a pivotal point in his/her decisions or actions. The flaw will usually result in the problems at the beginning of the novel and the resolution comes about as part of resolving the flaw. The flaw can be brought about in the character as part of a reaction to an event in his/her past.
If my character Robert fell deeply in love with a blonde and she cheated on him and broke his heart, his flaw might be trouble trusting anyone in a relationship, particularly blondes. So the novel might throw him together with a blonde and then put him in a situation that he can only get out of by trusting her. The flaw and his conflict are both internal. Though to make things interesting for the reader, they are being explored through exciting external conflict.
If Fabio is fired from his cover model job because he's aging, this is not a character flaw. This is a circumstance outside his control. However, if he's having trouble finding a new job because his vanity prevents him from cutting his hair and he keeps going on interviews in shirtless pirate costumes -- that would be a character flaw.
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Joined: 3/10/2011
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I really only have one unacceptable flaw and that's cruelty to others. All other flaws can be overcome as part of the story and I'm okay with that, but being mean for meanness' sake is not okay.
I don't mind if there are times when characters let things happen to them and aren't screamingly active, as long as there is growth and that changes.
This may be a product of where I work, but if characters can't overcome flaws, then why are we reading about them? Isn't that part of the point? To examine that flaw, dig in the dirt, really poke around, and then see the character rise above it?
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Joined: 3/11/2011
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BDSM is a tricky topic. If those stories are being done right, there must be consent before any BDSM or sex (they can be different) takes place. There are specific sorts of rules that govern conduct in those situations, and not just in books. And the BDSM books are usually clearly marked by publishers, so generally those reading them won't find kink an unacceptable flaw.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
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Hi, Monday! You make a really important point ... we as writers are trying to get our characters over the hump. And we have to have the tools with which to do that, which means having good insight into human nature.
Romance heroes and heroines may be more "stock" than others, but they're not cardboard cut-outs. The growth of the characters throughout these books (well, hopefully) is what I feel that a lot of people who criticize romance miss entirely.
My female protagonist's flaw is that she doesn't believe that love and marriage can ever endure the long haul once everything's past the limerence phase. The men in her life seem to prove it. She's closeted that need for love away quite deeply.
My male protagonist has a flaw that's far more difficult to describe. In fact, I can't even think how I can! 
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Joined: 3/14/2011
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I believe it depends on the novel (or characters and their treatment) itself. Is no one, then, worthy of forgiveness if there are unacceptable flaws?
I recently read an ARC in which the woman lied to the man about being infertile in order to get pregnant. He got over it, I did not. But then again he also gave up who he was for her in the end and that just rubbed me four ways of wrong as well. In general lying is bad, but can be something that is forgiven, the way this particular work handled it did me wrong though.
So it's hard to say. Are all murderers unworthy of love? No, but to find the one that is and make your audience believe it would be masterful, would it not?
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Joined: 3/11/2011
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Jenn may have hit on something with -- it depends on the novel. Perhaps not just the novel, but the sub-genre of romance the author writes for. A "Brides and Babies" crowd might have different views on flaws than say the paranormal romance crowd. Or the BDSM erotica audience. Maybe the real question is -- can you make your hero redeemable despite his flaws?
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Joined: 3/16/2011
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@Jenn, who wrote:
"I recently read an ARC in which the woman lied to the man about being infertile in order to get pregnant. He got over it, I did not. But then again he also gave up who he was for her in the end and that just rubbed me four ways of wrong as well. In general lying is bad, but can be something that is forgiven, the way this particular work handled it did me wrong though."
Eeee-yi! The mere premise of that book sounds terrible, Jenn. For one, it sends the message to women who cannot have children that they do indeed have to lie about it, and that this is something to be ashamed of. Lying about infertility is never a good thing, but why should anyone have to?
Secondly, I don't wanna read any romance novel where the male protagonist remotely considers a woman's breeding potential as part of the equation. If, in this book, he had to "get over it," .... er, I'll pass on that one.
Sometimes ya gotta wonder who greenlights certain books ...
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Joined: 2/28/2011
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We write for our readers....what one person might find distasteful, another might truly enjoy. So whether a rapist can reform into a hero lies in the skill of the writer. If she tells the story in a masterful way....then murderers & rapist can be forgiven....but I must see the growth arc and it must be believable.
☺
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Joined: 3/12/2011
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@Lisa - I'm not certain, but I think the male protagonist had to get over being lied to, not get over her infertility. I could be wrong though. Jenn?
This discussion has really given me some good insights on flaws and redemption within a romantic relsationship in a novel. That's a good thing for me; I've got a series I'm working on where the female protagonist embodies just about all of the flaws we've been talking about. One of the meta-arcs in the series is a redemption story, and one of the driving forces in that redemption is the male protagonist, who loves her flaws and all.
One of the difficult balances in writing that is showing that he doesn't see her flaws as non-flaws, nor does he overlook them, but they don't stop his basic feelings for her.
An interesting side note is that *she* is concerned with fertility; she's responsible for a dynasty.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
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Women who claim,both for themselves, and the writer claiming in the description of the character, to be strong, independant, and not beholden to a man, who then fall apart and turn submissive for the "right guy" There's nothing wrong with a woman who prefers to be submissive , but by making a dom woman turn submissive, you're suggesting that women as a whole naturakky want that man they can be submissive to, and that IS wrong.
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Joined: 3/12/2011
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@Alexander - are you talking about independance as an informed characteristic, which might just be a mistaken impression of self, or a character that abruptly switches from indepedant to dependant at the drop of a hat for 'the right guy'?
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Joined: 3/13/2011
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a character that abruptly switches. Where half the book is given showing how strong and dominant she is, but then she suddenly decides to go all faerie tale princess for the main guy. It just kills the realism for me.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
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Very interesting topic!
I read a romance a few months ago that really rubbed me the wrong way for this very reason. The main male lead was, in my opinion, emotionally manipulative and abusive. The story included a pseudo rape scene (I say pseudo because the girl did agree in the end). Though there was the whole happily ever after ending I was repelled by the man. For me as a reader, I found his actions unforgivable, I couldn't see what the gal saw in him.
I think I'm going to go hit Amazon and see what the reviewers have to say about it. I like the author's other books but that one isn't getting re-read.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
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Just as I thought, the reviews on Amazon were mixed. A lot of people left 5 stars, they loved it but about a third of the reviews were 1 or 2 stars for the abuse factor.
It may be because it's a period piece set in the early 1800's but...bleh. I've never read a book and hoped the heroine would pack her little bags and run like a citizen of Tokyo fleeing Godzilla. If anyone is curious the book is called Whitney, My Love by Judith McNaught.
Another unforgivable flaw I have a hard time getting around is cheating but the big ones are abuse, emotional and physical.
Take the Twilight books, I think Edward is terrible. In the third book he disables Bella's car so she can't go see the other guy, all under the guise of 'protecting' her. Don't get me started on the whole watching her sleep thing. Creepy.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
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https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-AJqQWopg_Xo/TX284UgzXiI/AAAAAAAAAF4/tcFG1IWUc5Y/s1600/i+watch+you+while+you+sleep.gif
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Joined: 3/16/2011
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You guys are cracking me up!
I always thought that this goes without saying, but when a male character is controlling, that’s a huge turn off for me. When you see this trait in women, it’s generally called “manipulative” rather than “controlling,” but it’s essentially the same thing. Male characters who come across as chest-thumping he-men greeble me out quite a bit. I’ve always felt that such overt displays are a sign of weakness.
I was married to that controlling guy – you know, the guy who always thought he knew what was best for the little lady. And I actually did pack up my bags and flee. He was a very insecure man. So it really greebles me out whenever the male lead “dominates her will” and does things throughout the story that put her in her place to ensure that she plays follow-the-leader. Yick.
I was wondering if I were the only person who thought Edweird (“Twilight”) was sort of greebly. Obviously, I’m not. Did nothing for me. But it makes you really wonder: Is this what most tweens and adult women want to read about? Do controlling male characters still resonate with a certain part of the population? I believe that they actually do.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
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yes, they do, BUT. there is a difference between a DOMINANT man, and a CONTROLLING man. (and vice versa, with women). There are a lot of women who like to be submissive, to have a dominating presence in their lives. Then again, there are a lot of men who crave the same thing.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
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In total agreement with you Lisa! My ex was the same sort and I ended up in South Africa on an internship just to get away from him. So when I see that level of controlling behavior it really skeeves me out.
About Twilight...let me pull out my soapbox here. I thought the books were ok, but not something I would direct my daughter to if I had one. The very thought that I might have a thirteen year old girl who would read this and think this sort of relationship was normal? Terrifying. What kind of message does it send to the teenage set? Make your boyfriend the center of your world and go catatonic when he leaves you and oh yeah, get all suicidal to try to see him one last time. Oh yeah, marry him at 18 too!
In my world, Edward needs to meet Buffy. Badly.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
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@Alexander
There is indeed a difference between dominant and domineering. This is just my personal experience (as a romance reader), but a lot of authors cross that line way too frequently for my tastes. I mean, most women want a man to be a man and have th masculine traits associated – self-assuredness, inner strength, the ability to make sound decisions … move heavy stuff. ☺ But I can always tell when the line has been crossed and the female protag ventures into “controlling” territory. And it starts when he tries to “help” solve their problems or get them out of silly scrapes.
@Ivoidwarrenties
“In my world, Edward needs to meet Buffy. Badly.”
ROTLMAO! I luuuuurve you!
No kidding. I read the “Twilight” series simply because I wanted to see what the big deal was about these novels. It took me three weeks to get past Chapter One. It’s basically Mary Sue, which I’m not into. But a lot of tweens are into Mary Sue, apparently. I think that there’s just something about this particular age group, psychologically, that craves a domineering dude like Edweird. I mean, think about it … the teenaged years are in-between days. Not child, not adult. It’s a time for self-exploration and evolving. It can be terrifying for a lot of girls. And here’s this author who gives them a “hero” who does all of that heavy lifting for them, and they’re like, “Cool! I don’t have to figure it out for myself!”
It’s emotionally unhealthy, but it is what it is …
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Joined: 3/16/2011
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Emotionally unhealthy but yes, it is what it is. I'm the biggest hypocrite of them all because after getting up on my soapbox I actually write to the same audience using the same formula. It is what it is but what it is, pays well.
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Joined: 3/10/2011
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Whoa. So many things to think about! I love reading this thread, but it definitely brought up another one for me:
Getting pregnant deliberately without telling the man that you're doing it. *shudders* Also, it bugs me when protection isn't used to give a pregnancy plot without explanation for how that happened. Okay, that was totally awkwardly phrased but what I mean is that if you have a worldly wise male and female, then there should be protection, if it screws up, fine. If there are other circumstances, fine. But I can't stand it when I read a hero and/or heroine who should have known better and for some reason just !whoops! didn't do it.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
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@Monday
Hoo boy! I loathe unplanned pregnancy plotlines, too.
We could argue forever about whether romance novels send the wrong messages to women and if they increase our expectations of men to the point of the impossible, but if a reader still wants to believe in Prince Charming, there’s no serious harm done. She’ll soon find out that no such man exists and that romance novels are simply love stories/fairy tales with a guaranteed HEA.
However, when an innocent third party is brought into the romance equation, it makes me shudder vehemently. Babies are not vehicles to make people fall in love with each other. I can count the number of single moms with whom I’m acquainted on the fingers of both hands who thought this at one point. And I know even more men who got themselves in this situation. And I can tell ya, there are no HEAs in real life. I’m always aware that I might be writing to someone who’s extremely impressionable. Getting knocked up accidentally is not something I want to portray as OK to tweens, teens and young women.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
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Monday, that is how my second son came to be. We had no intention of having a second kid for a couple years. We were using protection (no pill since she was still breastfeeding at the time. Seriously, where is my male Pill!?) and, well, ran out of protection, and thought, enh, one weekend, we're FIIIINNNE. I mean, it took us a year of trying the first time, right? Yeah.... So now I have an 20 month old and a 2 month old.
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Joined: 3/10/2011
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Alexander, but that, i still think is different than what I was trying to describe, because you were using protection and protection isn't foolproof. That's different from when characters are portrayed as smart, educated, into not wanting a baby and then have one anyway with not even a mention of protection not working, which always led me to believe none was used.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
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No no . We WERE using protection (condoms. ) We ran out. We figured, ahh, one time without protection isnt going to hurt. So we were no longer using protection.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
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I hope you guys don't mind me listing your "flaws" on my blog. I will not, of course, use your names -- just some of the things that you've pointed out in this thread.
Obviously, I'm gasping for a topic to write about in my blog. (!) Finding them ain't that easy.
Now, back to our regularly-scheduled romance ...
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Joined: 3/14/2011
Posts: 80
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My personal pet peeve flaw in romance novels? Female characters who are written in such a way that it seems they can't live life without a man. There's a very popular YA series *cough*sparklyvampires*cough* where the heroine seems to have that issue. I think it's a horrible thing to teach girls. Sure we all want to be loved, but one can lead a happy life unattached. Use that time to improve one's self, find a new hobby, etc. rather than mope in a bedroom for months and then take advantage of a friend's feelings 
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Joined: 3/13/2011
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Mulhall, I find it an even bigger character flaw in real women. I have several friends who seem to feel they HAVE to be in a relationship, and within two weeks of ending one, will find another guy to be dating, even if he sucks for them, just so they are "dating" someone at all times.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
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@Alexander
I have a very dear friend like that. As soon as she's out of a relationship -- and most of these are fairly long-term -- she's in a new one within a period of a couple of weeks, just as you said.
I personally cannot switch gears that fast, especially if the last relationship that ended held any meaning for me at all. I feel that jumping into something new at that stage doesn't allow for a period of reflection to determine what went wrong in the last one.
My friend just meet another guy ... "this is the one!" I smile and wish her well, but you know ... I've heard this before. One thing that I might mention is that she's not financially sound, and these men definitely were (e.g., put her on their car insurance plan, bought her furniture, paid for vacations, picked up her school loans, etc.). The last one gave her a car. No one has *ever* given me a car or paid my bills -- not even when I was married. (!)
I don't even want to bring this up, but ... I sort of feel like her main incentive is to make sure she has a $$ fallback.
(Is it evil of me to wonder about that --?)
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Joined: 3/12/2011
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@MB / Alexander - Ooh, now there's an interesting thread idea. "How do you deal with the conflict of 'role model' vs. 'realistic' in your characters?
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Joined: 3/14/2011
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I have friends who are like that as well. Maybe if they have books and TV shows with strong female role models who could have healthy relationships and still be happy and fulfilled when not in a relationship, maybe they wouldn't be like that in read life (provided they were readers...)
@Robert it would be a good idea for a thread. Go ahead and start it for the credit and I'll chime in
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Joined: 3/13/2011
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role model? (charles barkley voice) I ain't no role model! and neither are my characters!
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Joined: 3/30/2011
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Pedophilia. I have seen just about every character flaw saved in the end by brilliant writing, but pedophilia is not one of them. One of my favorite authors growing up ventured outside of usual genre to write a horror novel. Of course I snapped it up as soon as I could get my hands on it. But within the first few chapters the main character is "seduced" by a five year old girl. The author had the protagonist just lay there while the child got on top of him and "took advantage". He had a romantic relationship with this child throughout the book.
Now the kid was a normal kid, not some 300 year old succubi in a kids body, just a little girl who liked to color. That soured me, not only on that specific book, but on the author as a whole. I haven't bought anything he's written in over 10 years. and I never will again.
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@Cassandra
A pedo as a main character? Seriously--? And this was published --??
::jaw drop::
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Yes. And that author is well known and has been considered "respected" for decades
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care to tell us what book?
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Joined: 3/12/2011
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@MB - posted over in Character Development.
@Cassandra - Now you've got me curious, too. What book?
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Joined: 3/30/2011
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Firefly by Piers Anthony
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Joined: 3/4/2011
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As a writer, I don't get saying there are "unacceptable flaws" for characters to have. To me, the only unacceptable thing in writing is to think someone else can decide what you should (or shouldn't) write -- including the reader.
We're not robots who can spend our whole lives automatically not having any "unacceptable flaws" and neither are our characters. Characters are patterns woven into a tapestry. Sometimes their actions are meant to be taken literally, sometimes they are symbolic (ex: rape fantasies are not a literal desire to be raped, but a far more complex and nuanced part of the human psyche that can be mined to make a character's journey richer). It would be pretty easy to judge a symbolic action inacurrately if you treated it like the literal, real-life behavior of your next door neighbor. Books can have a million layers; deciding there are behaviors that are always "unacceptable" in characters is stripping those layers away so that you are reading a book only in its simplest (and least interesting) form.
People do all sorts of things that the society they live in frowns on. That doesn't make them unlovable, intolerable, useless, or unworthy of being in a book. I'd be censoring my books before they were even born if I decided beforehand that there are characters I should "never" write about. It's poppycock to me.
When I write romance, I write what I want to read, and what I want to read is smutty, sexy, and full of complex, "unacceptably flawed" human beings.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
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Audry, in this case, the topic under discussion is specifically flaws that the character has in a ROMANCE novel that makes the two main characters getting together and having a HEA impossible.
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