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Joined: 4/3/2011
Posts: 20
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I have gotten some really useful reviews and some that the cynical part of me figures were done for no other reason than that the person wanted to complete 3 "reviews" so they could put their own book up. I try to rate the reviews not only on my own book but on other books as well, but I am not sure what the point of rating those reviews is. Can someone explain?
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 222
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If you feel the review was stellar, give it a thumbs up. If you feel it was average, but not super amazing, don't do anything. If you feel it was only done for the 3 completed reviews or that they didn't put any effort or give any useful information, give it a thumbs down -- this is what I do. I will also thumbs down if they are rude.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 244
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The thumbs up and thumbs down is all part of the karma system involved here in Book Country. It's part of the badge system and also factors into the way stars are tallied on a review that you've given someone. The more thumbs up a person gets, the higher there karma.
There's more information about it in the FAQs.
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Joined: 3/7/2011
Posts: 55
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I've been contemplating giving thumbs-down to a few random reviews I've read about here... but I'll admit I feel kind of guilty at the idea. It seems almost like sticking my nose in and being petty.
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Joined: 2/27/2011
Posts: 353
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You should be using the thumbs up/thumbs down the way it was intended: if a review is thoughtful and contains constructive and concrete advice on how to make your work better, it should get a thumbs up - no matter how negative the review is or how low the star rating.
I have seen a few reviews on here that give a quick five stars with absolutely no real detailed feedback. Those get a thumbs down.
Additionally, you all should be using the comments function on the reviews to ask more questions about reviews if you feel there isn't enough concrete feedback, and to start a dialogue with the reviewer. I use the comments to call attention to a review that may have a high star rating yet is filled with criticisms on things to fix. People on this site are sometimes too quick with four and five stars. One of the purposes of Book Country is not only to help you become a better writer but to become a more thoughtful READER as well.
The karma system we've come up with is designed to help the community decide who they most trust for feedback. The more thumbs up your reviews, comments and discussions get, the more weight your reviews are given when the ratings are averaged for the books you have reviewed. Conversely, the more thumbs down you get the less your reviews and opinions are weighted.
Hope this helps!
Colleen
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Joined: 4/3/2011
Posts: 20
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Thanks, everyone! I was using the thumbs up and down basically the way Colleen said -- if it's useful, even if negative, it gets a thumbs up, not useful, even if positive, gets a thumbs down--but I didn't understand the Karma aspect!
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Joined: 3/7/2011
Posts: 38
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Didn't know where else to put this..
Someone, not me, has thumbs-downed a lot of the reviews on my book.
Let me say again, it was not me. But the way it was done makes it seem like it was me. Face it, the author of a piece is the one most likely to be putting thumbs down on a review of that work. I have only done a thumbs-down on one of my reviews, and I am under the impression that person is no longer here.
Granted, those reviews targeted tended to be short and of the gushing variety, but I think it's mostly my business to interpret the value of reviews done on my work.
Most of the time, my personal response to a review for my work will come in the form of a comment.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 244
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As far as I know, the thumbs up and thumbs down functionality is disabled when you're looking at something you've posted. So you won't be able to thumbs up or thumbs down your own review or your own post in the discussion forums. (I'm glad it's that way because otherwise we'd have people on here trying to game the system, giving themselves thumbs up everywhere they go.)
I'll take a look at some of your reviews, if you like, and try to figure out why someone may have thumbed it down.
ETA: Sorry, mis-read the post. I'll take a look still and see what I can figure.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 244
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Okay, so I went and looked at the reviews. (Karma functionality still there for all reviews in question so I am not the thumb-down culprit.)
Looking at them, this is what I think:
I think it's what Colleen was driving at. If it contains nothing that's really helpful from a revision standpoint, meaning no real concrete and constructive criticism, then it's not as valuable a critique (no matter how many stars) as one that offers detailed feedback, even if that feedback is no more than a paragraph and is accompanied by a lower star rating than the ones in question.
Another perspective is to take a look at when the reviews were done. I did notice, when the site went into public beta, that there seemed to be an influx of reviews that fit the minimum wordage needed in each box to enable the star rating. My theory was that these may have been users eager to get their own books up for review. I'm not saying this is true. And it's probably hugely unfair of me to even think the thought.
But it could be this latter case and other BC members are drying to make sure it's a pattern that doesn't continue.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 214
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@Ava,
I’ve noticed the same thing. Someone has “thumbs downed” my reviews – but only the good reviews, and even the good reviews that were helpful. The less-than-stellar reviews, on the other hand, were given a “thumbs up,” regardless if they were helpful. I wondered if someone had it out for me; then I started looking at other people’s reviews, and I saw the same pattern. Even some of the helpful, positive four star + reviews that I wrote – and I write really long ones – were “thumbs downed.”
I don’t like to think ill of people, but … well, fill in the blank here.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 244
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That is officially uncool, Lisa. *runs off to thumbs-up other users' reviews* (only if the reviews deserve it, of course)
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Joined: 4/26/2011
Posts: 52
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@Lisa...You're not alone. I've been noticing the 'thumbs down' culprit all over the discussion boards. Things that are completely innocuous are getting 'thumbed down.' If someone asks other writers how they handle certain things in their own writing, it baffles me that when a person takes the time to answer, someone gives them a 'thumbs down' like they are wrong when they are answering a question about their own personal behaviors. Everything is subjective, but really?
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 244
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I've given a post in the discussion boards a thumbs down if it is wildly off-topic. But I usually leave things alone in the boards. I don't want to become a karma whore. But thumbs up/down should be given judiciously and with great thought.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 214
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@steph
I just “thumbs upped” you, because I agree – a thumbs down should be given after a lot of thought. I’ve never given one, to be honest. I’m just nice like that. ☺
@Toni
I’ve noticed the same type of thing on the discussion boards, too. I mean, WTH? It’s bothersome to think that a few people are out to discredit posters on Book Country, as well as the books they upload. I don’t know if TBTP know who is doing this or not, but I do feel that it needs to be addressed. Betafish Mom Colleen very neatly circumvented “ratings trading” that was apparently going on behind the scenes. Part of me wonders if this is a more covert way to manipulate the system. How can this possibly serve anyone?
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Joined: 4/26/2011
Posts: 52
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I agree, but if it is something like...(hypothetical) "What time of day do you write?" And, someone says, "2 p.m." and then you see a thumbs down under it.... It's a little ridiculous.
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Joined: 4/26/2011
Posts: 52
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@Lisa...Yes. I've scratched my head on a few.
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Joined: 5/8/2011
Posts: 52
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Ditto RJBlain.
I also will thumbs up or thumbs down other reviews I come across based on the same thing, not just reviews left on my novel. I had someone thumbs down my review because she said I didn't give her any compliments. But I gave her plenty of compliments. Someone else came along and thumbs upped that review, so that was cool 
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Joined: 3/7/2011
Posts: 55
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I wonder if there's someone trying to game the system and raise the relative ranking of their own book by affecting other people's ratings. I mean, if a books high-rated reviews get bad-karma'd, and the low-rated reviews get good-karma's, the rating of the book goes down, right?
If that's the motivation, that's a pretty terrible thing to do.
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Joined: 4/28/2011
Posts: 60
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I have thumb-downed a few reviews of other people's books because I was following the karma system as outlined by Colleen. The few times I've done this have been when I read a review that was clearly done just to fulfill the 3 review quotient and had absolutely nothing helpful to say either positive or negative. Conversely, I've also thumbed up reviews I thought were really well thought-out and constructive, whether I agreed with them or not.
I've never thumbed down something posted on a discussion board. I'm not quite sure what the point of that is. The only reason I could see for doing that is if something is wildly inappropriate, but under those circumstances I think I might be more inclined to report the comment for abuse.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 244
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Thumbs up/down on discussion board posts is just further indication of a member's constructive contribution to the site as a whole. The higher your karma, the more influential your reviews are in the algorithm that tabulates the overall star rating for a work.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 214
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@Steph
Okay, gotcha. Now this is all starting to make sense!
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Joined: 3/7/2011
Posts: 38
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I understand how the ratings/karma system works. One of the problems is that it's essentially an honor system. For honor systems to work properly, everyone on them has to be honorable. Which I think most of the people here are.
I haven't been able to be on much in the past week, and it was surprising to return and find that someone had thumbs-downed a lot of the reviews posted for my book. I think some of it is probably related to the not well done/ only written to fulfill the requirement. I know beyond a doubt that several of the reviews were just that -- On a couple of them I remember thinking, "Did you even read it?" I looked at some of the books I follow or have been recommended to me and noticed the same pattern.
But I think some of those reviews that got a negative rating are from people who have good intentions but aren't skilled at critiquing yet. I still have a long way to go improving my own skills and BC has been teaching me a lot about what makes a good critique.
Personally, I don't care for the ability to rate everyone's posts. Someone has to be obviously out to cause trouble before I will thumbs-down.
I got a thumbs-down for a post in one category -- Someone had suggested that maybe my book needed to be in a different genre. My intent was to inquire about that with people from the genre. I haven't been back to that category at all; don't have time to play petty games.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 244
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I wasn't implying you didn't know how the karma system worked. (Curse not having a quote feature in the forums.)
For me, if I'm torn at all about whether a review is constructive or not, I leave it be. And for the most part I leave the forum posts alone.
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Joined: 5/12/2011
Posts: 240
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I had someone thumbs down what I considered a helpful review on my book. I wondered if it was just because it had the lowest star rating of all my reviews. I also wondered who did it. I myself gave the same review a thumbs up.
I think it would be a good idea if the thumbs weren't anonymous. Like, you mouse over the little red or green line and get a list of folks who rated that way. As Facebook does when people "like" something.
That might discourage willy-nilly thumbing in either direction.
Anonymity is the bane of the Internet...
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 244
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But if you know who did it, I think there could end up being open attacks and harassment of members. (Not that I would ever attack someone or harass them. I'm here to learn and improve just like I think most of us are.)
There's no easy solution other than to do our best to educate each other and lead by example.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 279
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I've seen a few sites try to implement something like this and all of them ended up disabling the thumbs down. It ended up being too much of a headache dealing with people abusing it.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 214
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ITA, ivoid. I think that the "thumbs down" should be disabled. If someone finds a review helpful, the "thumbs up" option should still be in place. The problem is that a lot of these "thumbs downs" are serious judgment calls. I almost feel that it doesn't matter what kind of review I give a book -- if I review it well and give constructive advice, it'll get a thumbs down. If I review it "meh"or lower, even comprehensively, I'm afraid of getting a thumbs up just for the sake of making my review stronger, not because it's helpful.
Not feeling too much incentive to review anything at present ...
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 279
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I've started seeing posts getting thumbs down just for answering a question. It really makes me pause when I go to answer a post now, never mind reviewing.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 244
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When BEA is over, we should probably shoot Colleen or Danielle a message about the blatant abuse of the thumbs down feature. I'm sure they have the ability and means to really investigate it and figure out if it needs any sort of action on their part.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 214
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@steph,
I sent out a tweet to Book_Country asking someone to read this thread yesterday.
I imagine BEA is extremely time-consuming, and it's not like the world will come to an end. But, I do feel like this warrants looking into. If people are misusing the feature, this will only deter other people from joining BC, and really, who could blame them?
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Don't worry! I'm here paying attention!
You're all raising interesting points. I think what may be happening is that people are accidentally hitting the thumbs down on occasion. Since you can't go back and change it, all you can say is "whoops!" One thumbs down though, isn't going to break your reputation--the thumbs up you receive are going to factor in too and people are more inclined to thumbs something up if they think it's constructive than to thumbs it down if they don't.
I don't think we'll be disabling the system as it's an important part of the reputation algorithm we have in place, but thank you all for letting us know your thoughts. We will definitely have a chat about it and see if there's a way we can improve the system. Colleen and I were actually already chatting about this te other day, too, so we'll likely be posting a discussion soon about how to use thumbs up and down properly.
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Joined: 4/26/2011
Posts: 52
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Thank you, Danielle.
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Joined: 2/27/2011
Posts: 353
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I actually don't think people are misusing this feature. It really is up to the individual to make the call as to whether he or she finds a comment or a review constructive or not. Generally I tend to go through and thumbs down any review that consists of single sentences, because it is clear to me that the author of the comment or review put zero thought into what they had written. This is the kind of thing we're trying to teach people not to do, and consistent thumbs down is a good way to do it.
However, I generally don't use the thumbs up or down on a question because it's a fairly neutral comment.
Danielle and I have been discussing this at great length; we'll pull together a Discussion to talk about how to use the thumbs up/thumbs down feature after the Memorial Day holiday.
One thing to remember: The Book Country staff doesn't work 24/7 and we're a very small team. We will always keep an eye on this board, but when there is an industry event that we have to work all day (like Book Expo) or a long holiday (like Memorial Day weekend), it may take us a couple days to get back to you guys about something. =)
Thanks!
Colleen
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Joined: 5/5/2011
Posts: 37
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I think it is also important to remember that the reviews should be from a reader / writer perspective in helping the author revise to a better draft and assist them in their journey of writing awesomeness.
I know some people like to get into their character persona and review and talk like their character but it is more helpful to review as the writer behind the character. I have noticed that anyone posting a review as their character has most assuredly gotten more than just a few thumbs downs especially if the character doesnt list some things that help improve the story they are critiquing.
I thumbs up things that are helpful and insightful that help me think of things in a different perspective.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 222
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I think a very elegant solution -- if it can be done -- is just have a confirmation window on the thumbs down feature. That way, no 'whoops' happen. If someone *really* meant to thumbs down, they will click 'yes' at the prompt. If not, they click no and a whoops is prevented!
It adds one step, but since so many people are uncertain if the thumbs down is intentional or not, that might be a good compromise: Keeping the feature, just ensuring that it isn't improperly used -- unintentionally. One person will not be able to screw up the karma of others easily.
It is like accepting a critique. Grow a little thick skin if you get a thumbs down. It won't kill you. (And yes, I've totally gotten them... it feels very much the same way as getting a bad review.)
Hang in there folks, what doesn't kill you will make you stronger and a little thumbs down is really harmless in my opinion 
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Joined: 4/27/2011
Posts: 608
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Here's my two cents: I would like the option to comment and self-identify on a thumbs-down as to the reason why I "thumbs-downed" a particular review or comment. (And I've only "thumbs-downed" a couple! I've "up-thumbed" at least a hundred more. If I feel neutrally about a review or comment I won't "thumb" at all. If I agree, enjoy or otherwise find merit in a particular posting I will "up-thumb"; only if I STRONGLY disagree with a comment or the fairness of a review will I "down-thumb”.)
Problem is, that could touch off a flame war, right? If a thumbs-down smarts for a brief micro-second, imagine what a detailed, author-identifying explanation ADDED to the thumbs-down could do to the on-line discourse. Yes, most people (writers and non-writers alike) posting here would engage in constructive, albeit highly-spirited and opinionated dialogue, however . . .
What do you think about this suggestion, reviewers and writers? (And hard-working, polite-policing site people—’lo there, Colleen and Danielle!) Dare we risk extended authorial elaboration as to the whys and wherefors of a particular thumbs-down?
But failing that, I agree with RJ above: an intermittent sprinkling of thumbs-downs cannot long impede or otherwise obstruct any one writer's over-all excellence and karma—if merited and truly earned. And anyone “thumbs-downing” a posting is commenting as much on THEMSELVES and their own aesthetic sensibilities and critical judgment as they are on the over-all excellence (or lack thereof) of any one posted piece of writing. By which I mean to say: justified "thumb-downs" will be immediately apparent to most readers/reviewers, whereas unjustified or questionable "thumb-downs" will be, for the most part, ignored.
Ask not for whom the thumbs-down down-thumbs, it thumbs down for . . . (I’ll stop now.)
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 222
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I honestly like it being anonymous... I appreciate having the ability to thumbs down in private. I wouldn't have the courage to otherwise.
(Funny, I have the courage to be honest in a critique, but the thought of being caught thumbs-downing something makes me squeamish)
Privacy has always been a foundation stone of this site -- If we open up the can of worms, we can't really go back. I would rather keep the high standards for privacy enjoyed. A single flame war can completely -destroy- a community. It is not worth risking.
I've seen one person destroy a single community over temper tantrums relating to ranking systems. This system -- as it currently stands -- is one of the best at preventing said tantrums. While I would hope all of us can be adults about this, it'd be unreasonable to put that expectation on every person.
If it tickles someone to give an unwarranted thumbs-down, it really doesn't hurt anyone other than them. However, perhaps a karma alteration to reflect on the individual giving the thumbs-down should be warranted.. (If you play with fire, you get burned concept)
That might ensure that thumbs-downs are treated with respect... if you do more thumbs-down than thumbs-up, there is likely a problem. It goes both way -- too many thumbs-ups that aren't warranted are equally damaging. It makes someone who might not otherwise deserve influence have influence.
It is a two-way street.
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Joined: 2/27/2011
Posts: 353
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Carl -
There's no way we would do that on this site. The whole purpose of this site is to give writers a safe place to post work and express their opinions on other people's work. Privacy and respect are at the core of our community guidelines and we're pretty happy that we've set such a high standard here.
Cheers!
Colleen
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Joined: 4/27/2011
Posts: 608
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And I'm with you a 100% on that, Colleen! It's a great site, with many hard-working, honest, earnest writers trying to do their best—in their art and by each other.
The only reason I even suggested allowing the option of an elaborated comments field was to soothe the ruffled feelings of those who might wish for a more detailed explanation of why and how a particular posting got a “thumbs-down”.
Never having spent time on other writing sites, I'm blissfully unaware of the intensity and animosity of writer-on-writer on-line Machiavellian maneuverings and gladiatorial combat. But I’m learning . . . !
I feel—perhaps naively so—that if your heart is pure, conscience clean and motives noble (and you have some genuine aesthetic sensibility and/or artistic sensitivity), you should be able to critique and counter-critique constructively. I’m thinking in terms of on-going dialectic, as opposed to mere gain-saying and heated argumentation that generates more heat than light.
All of which is to say: it was just a suggestion. A bad one, I’ve come to believe, in rather short order, heh!
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@Carl I totally understand what you mean about sometimes wanting to elaborate about why a review was or wasn't helpful. In certain cases, if you disagree with a particular point or want further clarity on a review or part of a review, you're welcome to leave a comment to open a dialogue. Just do so with respect (which I'm sure you will!). I've left comments like that on more than one occasion--for example, when a member gives a book three stars but then says nothing negative about it. There must've been SOMETHING they didn't like if they didn't rate it 5 stars!
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Joined: 3/7/2011
Posts: 55
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I do sometimes wonder if people are using the Down Thumb to say, "I didn't agree with this review" rather than "This review was unhelpful."
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