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Joined: 1/10/2012
Posts: 192
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Okay, gang. This has been floating around for some time now, and unless you're living under a rock (my apologies for those who happily do), you've probably heard of a recent NYT Bestseller called 50 Shades of Grey. It's erotica, plain and simple, but like the title, there's more here beneath the surface.
See, the author used to write fan fiction, and this book was formally known in those circles by another name, inspired, supposedly, by the Twilight series. I won't bore you with all of the drama, but the author was popular in the fan fiction world, and so was her rather poorly written fic.
So she decided to self-publish online, replaced Edward and Bella with Christian and Anastasia, and has since been raking in the dough, getting interviews, getting on the Today Show, etc. Many have said that Stephenie Meyer should sue her for plagiarism; that even though the characters were human and in a totally different world than the original books, that EL James never would have written her erotic novels without the Twilight series to inspire her.Others cry foul because James took fan fiction and sold it as her own original fiction. There's so much fodder here I don't want to spoil the fun, but hopefully this will start the conversation.
My question to you all is: when walking the line between plagiarism and inspiration, where DO you draw the line? How do you feel about James's books, success, etc.?
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Can't comment on the case you cited, Laura. My dictionary defines plagerize as "To use and pass off (the ideas or writings of another) as one's own." (That's a definition I just plagerized from the American Heritage Dictionary 4th ed  Maybe Stephenie Meyer should sue. But that is a legal question better answered by someone like Maria Granovsky, an Intellectual Property litigator who is also a member of our group, so I recommended this thread to her.
Your question is a great one. Personally, I look to the source of my story ideas, scenes, characters. If I don't know of any other source, it's mine. If I imagined it on my own, I own it. But it's a big world and writing has been around 10,000 years so how would I really know? Hopefully, the dictionary is wrong because it didn't say, "To knowingly use...."
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 279
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I'm on the fence about Shades of Gray. On one hand, it did start out as a fan fiction, but the characters morphed into something else. With the Twilight buzz dying down, something like this coming out could lead to another small bump in sales for Stephanie Meyer's books.
It's a bit ironic because, if I remember correctly, Meyer started Twilight out as an erotic set of short stories in a writing community.
To answer your question, I think every writer out there walks the line. Look at society and the way it is influenced by media. Everyday phrases can come from movies, books and newspapers. How many of us use actors, friends, enemies, or the mailman as inspiration for a character's looks or personality? We use our imagination to create stories, but everything we see, do and experience are fertilizer for that imagination.
The idea for one of my books came from seeing a ten second special effect in a movie. It wasn't the character, the story, or movie as a whole that inspired me. It was a wisp of smoke. Does that mean I'm plagiarizing? I don't think so.
Personally, I think what James did was ballsy, but it's working for her. I'd like to be known for my own characters, not for playing on a concept and characters created by another.
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Joined: 8/13/2011
Posts: 272
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This is one of my perennial worries. A lot of my ideas begin as what-ifs from other books (the villains from Spartan are based on a throw-away idea from Mother of All Storms for example), so I'm quite worried about being a plagarist. Generally, I solve this by being weirder or adding my own spin on it. One project of mine has the phrase 'stop writing Mass Effect' written at the top of its notes, for example.
As for the case, I think that's going to be an interesting question going forwards. When does a story diverge far enough from its source material? I mean we've all seen a half-dozen or more takes on classic tales (there's how many Snow White movies coming out this year?) and the trend seems to be continuing. As for fan fiction itself, at it's best I think it can be a gateway to full on writing and I've seen a few fics that are often as good if not better than the source material.
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Joined: 4/27/2011
Posts: 608
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And for that matter, what's the difference between an affectionate homage and a blatant rip-off of an earlier, better work?
The authorial skill, established character and artistic integrity of the working writer, quoting (or riffing, in terms of characters or plot) off of that original seminal work, I submit. When I read about a hawk "circling in a widening gyre” in a Dean Koontz novel I don’t think to myself, “Ah-ha! Got’cha! Ya plagiarized Yeats here, ya bum!” but rather: “clever, well-read, sly dog you!"
On the other hand, when James Cameron admitted in an interview with a Hollywood reporter that he got the inspiration, plot and tone for his Terminator movie by—and this is a direct quote—“ripping off Harlan Ellison” [original-series Outer Limits work]—I wince and think: “You should have directly credited Harlan at the beginning of your film.” (Which, by the way, every updated release of the Terminator film now does.)
As to what the author did in this particular Shades of Grey instance: Sure, why not? More power to her! It’s not like Stephenie Meyer invented vampires, erotic longing, teenage angst and sparkles all by herself now, did she?
To perhaps maladapt [sic] and wrench out of context a quote of Isaac Newton’s: If we see farther, it’s because we stand on the shoulders of giants . . .
But wherever possible, credit the writer who inspired you. It’s the classy, correct and intellectually honest thing to do. That way when the great Karmic Wheel cycles again you won’t come back as a roach . . .
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A reincarnated roach? Carl, you clever, well-read sly dog you!
See "Archy and Mehitabel" Written as newspaper columns by Don Marquis beginning in 1916. Archy was a cockroach who had been a free verse poet in a previous life. Mehitabel, an alley cat, was his best friend. (She is politically incorrect, drowning her frequent litter of kittens in rain barrels.)
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Joined: 4/30/2011
Posts: 662
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Inspiration and plagiarism. This is hard. From what my college years have taught me, plagiarism usually has to involve blatantly ripping off not only plot but actual lines of the writing without citing it or giving credit to the original. We could sit here all day and complain about who ripped off what, much like everyone does when it comes to Avatar ripping off Furn Gully, but it is a very thin line to walk.
I'll use an example from my book. I was already intending to give my elves a more spiritual bent back in high school when I started writing what is now Hands of Ash. Then the awesomeness that is Avatar: The Last Air Bender was released by Nickelodeon. (Not to be confused with Cameron's pretentious trash or Shamalan's atrocity.) I was inspired to use the idea of body motion to "bend" the elements for the bounds in my novel, but my magic system is still very different. To say, it won't be Tai Chi movements, or boxing (which is seen in the new series The Legend of Korra). I decided to integrate this because I was tired of wands, incantations, and runes. I thought a physical element would break all that up nicely.
Oh, if you write any fantasy, you must sit down and watch the above mentioned series. It has simple, but great world building, and proves that Americans can make a good fantasy world not based on european culture.
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Joined: 3/12/2011
Posts: 376
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Funny, I always thought Avatar ripped off Pocohontas more than Fern Gully, but I see your point.
I've actually deliberately NOT read things because someone said they were similar to what I was writing. I've also seen or read things after I wrote that were simliar to what I was writing, but...
When I'm inspired by something, I'm more than willing to give it props, and I really try not to do what I would consider plagarizing - taking the plot, characters, setting, and all other elements and, well, changing the names. I actually try to take as little as possible, and I still attibute.
For example, the inspiration for the main character in XLI was a combination of the main character in Terminator and a phrase from a Ringo novel - specifically "That's a mighty small coffin." Hence, a pint sized cyborg. After that, everything (including the how of the cyborg) was mine. Mine, I tell you! *grin*
Although all of us, at this point, are probably influenced more than we realize by what we read as kids and no longer remember.
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Joined: 8/21/2011
Posts: 394
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Fan fiction, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is, by definition, "inspired" by the work of another and specifically uses the characters and/or settings created by the original author.
Plagiarism is the taking of someone else's works and ideas (which is where the concept of plagiarism gets muddy) and passing them off as your own.
Now, I've never read Shades of Grey (and probably never will), but it sounds to me that what the author did was mutate her fan fiction into something that does, at least in my opinion, cross the line into plagiarism. But to be able to say that for sure, I would have to read Shades of Grey and the Twilight series (and that will probably never happen). But it sounds to me that the Twilight series should have at least been mentioned in the front matter of Shades of Grey as the inspiration.
There are software packages out there that compare text against a huge database and will let you know what percentage (if any) was lifted from other sources. We run a type of plagiarism program against every monograph at work because a third-party medical writing company that was commissioned to produce 60 monographs for us plagiarized big chunks in each (their work was so abysmal on so many levels, we had our lawyers go after them to get quite a bit of what we paid them back).
I think there's a chance that plagiarism in fiction will become more of an issue the more people self publish. Ideally, the publisher and editors prepping work for publication would screen out the plagiarized stuff (I say "ideally" because we all know the volume of manuscripts that pass across an editor/publisher's desk is huge).
As for genuine inspiration - how can we not, as living, thinking, observing human beings not be inspired by what we see and hear; the words we read or listen to at a movie or the theater?
Any of us who write fantasy more than likely have elves and other races and complex magic systems and maybe even an epic battle in our works - but none of us invented elves or magic systems, so are we plagiarizing those ideas?
Those of us who write sci fi probably have aliens or alternate societies or robots or spaceships or maybe even an epic battle in our works - again, none of us invented any of that stuff.
I think the important thing is that we, as writers, need to be mindful of our work; need to stop ourselves if what we're doing steps over that line from inspiration to downright stealing. And if we truly are inspired by a specific author or work, then we should give credit where credit is due.
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Joined: 10/20/2011
Posts: 350
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@Angela: "Fan fiction, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is, by definition, 'inspired' by the work of another and specifically uses the characters and/or settings created by the original author."
You are correct, Angela, at least by the definition I've been working with for my past decade+ in fanfiction.
Oh, 50 Shades of Grey. It's an interesting case. From what I understand, "Masters of the Universe" (the original title) was so far removed from Twilight it only had names, location and a few details in common. And that happens in fanfiction more times than fans would like it to. Most cases are writers unsure if their writing is good enough so they tap into an existing fanbase. I actually wrote a plea on my blog dedicated to fanfiction asking them to just let their writing stand on their own as it won't be a good measure of their talent if fans are too upset about not recognizing their beloved characters to care.
If you want to talk about plagiarism and fanfiction, there is always the case of Cassandra Cla(i)re. She got her deal for her YA steampunk novels due to her popularity in the Harry Potter fandom. Unfortunately, by that time it had been revealed that most of her beloved Draco Trilogy had been plagiarized from various TV shows like "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and passages lifted wholesale from novels by Pamela Dean. If you google her name, it is all documented on the internet.
(The kicker? Some of her fans defended her plagiarism).
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Sorry about that. Back to the topic on hand, there is a line between plagiarism and inspiration. But the line is drawn by different people. I personally wouldn't do a find and replace on any of my fanfictions and publish them, even the best one. There is one I've pulled from the internet and plan to turn into an original novel. But I am pretty much overhauling everything and keeping only the fact that it takes place in a 19th century Parisian nightclub.
But people get inspired by things all the time. In "The Wedding Game," I have a scene where my MFC spends the Midsummer out in the fields and thinks she's met up with fairies. And I'll tell you that "A Midsummer's Night Dream" is my favorite Shakespeare story. But they aren't the same. And "The Conference House" is inspired by all the YA historical fiction novels by Ann Rinaldi I read over the years. But I'm not trying to copy her style or use her words.
"I think the important thing is that we, as writers, need to be mindful of our work; need to stop ourselves if what we're doing steps over that line from inspiration to downright stealing. And if we truly are inspired by a specific author or work, then we should give credit where credit is due."
I agree with Angela about this completely.
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Joined: 1/10/2012
Posts: 192
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Angela and Alexandria - yes. Yes! I think all of this backlash might have been avoided had James (and others who have done this) had simply paid homage and given credit where it was due. Alexandria - I know that most fan fiction is so far from its original inspiration that authors argue it IS original fiction, but I have a problem with that. See, would they have decided to sit down and write fiction if someone else's characters hadn't prompted them? And all of the hard work has already been done by someone else: creating characters that live in the minds of the readers; creating a world in which they live; creating backstory that gives them flesh and bones. That's why writing truly original fiction (to the extent that any of us can when we are all influenced, to some degree, by something) is so damn hard. We have to do all of that from scratch, and then make readers fall in love with our characters and the story. With fan fiction - let's take the HP series, for example - that's already been done by the J.K. Rowling.
That's why I have a niggling ethical and moral dilemma with folks who take their fan fiction, replace the names, and publish. I also think it's wrong to misrepresent yourself and your writing by "testing it out" by covering it up as fanfiction to test the waters. (By the way, I think James's claim that that was what she did is total crap.)
And I'm still undecided about the taking a work of fanfiction and reworking it to publish. Those precious degrees of separation from an already-published work remain, even when it's been overhauled. I'm sure some will disagree with me, and I welcome that. The whole idea just makes me uneasy.
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Joined: 4/30/2011
Posts: 662
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I too will admit that I have a problem with fan-fiction being looked at as original. In the first place, diehard fandom gives me the willies. (This is just a personal thing. No offense to those who love a franchise of some kind that much. I've just always been that way, even as a kid. I have complete respect for the diehard fan. It's hard to stay that dedicated.) That said, I avoid fan-fiction like the plague. I have never written it, and I don't allow it in a group I sponsor on another site. I want to stimulate original ideas. Using someone else's characters after they have done the work does not make it original, and changing names doesn't count. Characterization is half the battle.
Here, I'll use another example of a popular video game called Mass Effect. (Mr. Maguire already brought this up.) Even though Mass Effect is definitely it's own story, it has many similarities to Star Trek. Mass Effect is in no way ripping off the popular TV franchise even though it has a tribal alien warrior race, a race of logic minded over-thinkers, and a planetary alliance. Even with the similarities, no one would ever say this sweeping VG space opera was a rip-off.
I actually have another way to look at this. Look at the slew of fairy tale twists that have made it out recently. Now this isn't anything new. People have been doing fairy tale twists since the 19th century. Where it gets complicated is that fairy tales aren't really copyrighted, so they can't be "ripped off." So can that be considered plagiarism? Like I said, thin line.
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Joined: 3/12/2011
Posts: 376
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@LeeAnna - interesting riff on the conversation, bringing use of myth and legend into it, as well as bringing copyright in as well.
Plagarism is when you take another's work and call it your own. Copyright violations are when you sell another person's work and claim the money. Slight difference there - if you sell copies of my book, even if you leave my name on it, you're violating my copyright. If you use my characters and world without my permission, you can claim all kinds of things, like 'parody' or 'satire', and while you may be breaking the spirit of copyright, and you're certainly likely to plagarize some portion of my work, you may not be violating copyright. At least not enough to make it an open and shut case in court.
With the mythic thing, you're pulling on archetypes, or playing with common tales. If you do a straight retelling, I'd say you're plagarizing. If you put some kind of a new spin on it (a modern setting, reincarnated heroes, gender swapped heroes, whatever) and then change the story *because* of the changes you've spun, I'd say you're inspired and, well, riffing on the original legend.
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Joined: 10/20/2011
Posts: 350
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"And all of the hard work has already been done by someone else: creating characters that live in the minds of the readers; creating a world in which they live; creating backstory that gives them flesh and bones. That's why writing truly original fiction (to the extent that any of us can when we are all influenced, to some degree, by something) is so damn hard. We have to do all of that from scratch, and then make readers fall in love with our characters and the story. With fan fiction - let's take the HP series, for example - that's already been done by the J.K. Rowling."
@Laura: I can see your point, but in many ways, using already existing characters is harder than creating your own. Many times, the writers who use the cover of fanfiction get harsh reviews because the characters aren't acting the way they should. It helps to learn how to do characterization.
"That's why I have a niggling ethical and moral dilemma with folks who take their fan fiction, replace the names, and publish."
Here's the thing, there have been respected published authors who have said that that's okay! I couldn't believe it when I read Diana Gabaldon say it. When books like 50 Shades of Grey get published with this type of history, it gives credence to the belief that a character is just a name. Not the backstory, the flaws, the talents, the personality, the idiosyncracies, and appearance.
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Joined: 4/26/2011
Posts: 77
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Satan, get thee behind me!
I'm constantly tempted to rip off stuff I read, and often I give in. Oh, I tweak and rewrite and change the names and the setting and the plot and the chars and the dialog,
or at least one of those, but I still steal. If I credit all my sources, I'll have another chapter.
Even worse, stealing is a great way for me to get unblocked. I just pick a passage from Jo Nesbo or William Marshall or Michael Gruber or Rex Stout or whoever and let 'er rip.
So how do I know if I'm plagiarizing? I don't know how I know, but sometimes I know. For example, there is a priceless scene in The Abominable Man (Sjöwall and Wahlöö) in which two Stockholm policemen are tricked into arresting a char against their will. I'd give my left knee to use it, and I've made it my own over and over again, but I still feel I shouldn't use it. Ah, ethics.
Oh, I should mention that I totally ripped off the two Stockholm policeman characters. It's really more inspiration and homage, there. I don't feel even a twinge.
Anyway, if you read The Integrator, keep your eyes open. See if you can spot the stuff I took.
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Joined: 10/20/2011
Posts: 350
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It is tempting to use something else that seems so much better than what we can come up with. I've heard of writers who refuse to read when they are writing. Some of them just refuse to read their genre, others refuse to read all books. They feel this prevents them from being influenced or stealing something unknowingly.
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Another problem in the fanfiction world is that some authors have been sued by fans who claim that the author "stole" their ideas from their fanfictions. I personally think this is absurd. I think they are just picking up on the next logical step the author is going to take, especially if writing in a series. For example, after "Goblet of Fire," my friends and I used to play games as Harry Potter characters. We created this secret organization run by Dumbledore to fight Voldemort. The next book? "The Order of the Phoenix." We joked that Rowling had mice spies but never seriously thought she stole the idea from us.
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LeeAnna is exactly right.
The difference between original and fan fiction is the difference between Clerk Maxwell's electromagnetic equations & Marconi's telegraph , between Einstein's genius & Oppenheimer's bomb. Once something new has been created what follows can only be application.Writers of fan fiction are applying their brush to a template someone else created.
I'd sooner paint by numbers.
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Joined: 3/12/2011
Posts: 376
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@GD - Aw, sometimes painting by numbers is fun. No pressure, no thought to quality, no need to force anything, just you and a brush and some paints and some numbered spaces. After all, if you get struck by creativity, no one is *forcing* you to follow the numbers or even stay in the lines.
@Alexandria - I actually refuse to read the Liaden books for just that reason. I've never read them, but one of my unfinished, unpubbed series has been compared by folks who have read them. Hence, until I'm done writing I'm steering clear.
On the other hand, when I was stuck on The Strange Fate of Capricious Jones - OR - Genesis of an Iron Angel, I read through the entire archive of Girl Genius. All in one sitting. After that, ideas flowed free and untrammelled by writer's block. Or logic. Or grammar. Or sanity. But that's kinda what you need when you're writing Mad Scientist Steam Punk, so...
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Joined: 1/10/2012
Posts: 192
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@Alexandria: I know how those authors feel-while I'm actively working on my fantasy story, I'm refraining from reading any others to avoid (as much as possible, anyways) unknowingly borrowing anything. I wrote the short story that turned into Aequitas long before reading any of the Black Dagger Brotherhood books, but someone told me it reminded her of them. In that case, I'm not sure what I could have done differently. All I can do is move forward and try not to let that influence me.
On the other hand, I think reading other police dramas might help me with my other WIP. I think sometimes it works (not reading) and sometimes it backfires. I've seen arguments for both sides within this community.
Re:"I can see your point, but in many ways, using already existing characters is harder than creating your own."
Respectfully, I've got to disagree. With fan fiction, readers feel like they already inherently know the characters, since they were introduced elsewhere. My experience (based on observations about the ff world) is that people don't care if the MC they've come to know and love isn't acting as he or she should-that's part of the draw. That connection is still there... even if you change a name and make him a Dom, for instance. And THAT'S the difficult work part of it, the hard work that the original author has already done. Whatever the characterization, the original author forged that connection we readers have with the main characters. That's my problem with it.
Maybe this wouldn't even have been an issue, except for the fact that in this age of technology, you can't get away with writing fan fiction, doing a find and replace, pulling it and publishing the work as your own without people making noise about its true origins.
Ten years ago, let's just suppose a writer got really inspired by a book and decided to continue the story. After some careful editing of names and tweaking, it was published. Critics might have eventually drawn comparisons to the original book, but maybe it would have ended there, without much fanfare. No so with the constant barrage of information and online visibility we experience now.
I think in this instance, her first blunder was writing her fan fiction at all - whether she was testing OF or if it really was just inspired by Twilight. Because now, aside from the fact that the series is just poorly written and edited in general, as well as inaccurate in many places (or so I've been told), she will always have to look over her shoulder... and see people glaring at her.
Me? I'd much rather work damn hard on my OFs with the hope that maybe, someday, someone outside my immediate family and this wonderful community will read and enjoy them.
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Joined: 4/30/2011
Posts: 662
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I don't worry about what I read or watch while I'm writing because I'm pretty good at compartmentalizing. I have my writer's brain, and my audience brain. Every once in a while I may "take" something from another source to make my own, but only if there is a rhyme or reason to it. Usually it's a magic concept right now. I'm trying to flesh out my magic system a bit, and am trying to learn what can work and what may not.
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Joined: 11/17/2011
Posts: 1016
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I have a slightly different problem.
I don't copy or adapt or re-imagine characters or plots, but I have kept a file of tasty phrases, usages, etc. for thirty years.
When I take notes now I name the files according to the book they're pulled from, but I only started doing this a few years ago. The source of most of my collected vocabulary is long lost.
I can point out a few passages and tell you, this was lifted from Two Years Before The Mast, or from one of seven or eight biographies of Walter Raleigh, (I tend particularly to latch onto sea-going terms, as I know squat about life on sailing ships) but I can't come anywhere close with most of the stuff.
Before I finish my thing I plan to go through it with a fine tooth comb and twist anything that I suspect is too close to the original. But I'm sure I won't get it all, after all, I've been writing Sly for thirty years.
I worry about this a lot. But since I'm nowhere near a finished manuscript, I guess I have time to deal with it.
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Joined: 10/20/2011
Posts: 350
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"With fan fiction, readers feel like they already inherently know the characters, since they were introduced elsewhere. My experience (based on observations about the ff world) is that people don't care if the MC they've come to know and love isn't acting as he or she should-that's part of the draw. That connection is still there... even if you change a name and make him a Dom, for instance. And THAT'S the difficult work part of it, the hard work that the original author has already done. Whatever the characterization, the original author forged that connection we readers have with the main characters. That's my problem with it."
We are going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not saying your observation is wrong. Sadly, it's correct. I was expressing my opinion as a die-hard fan fully entrenched in fandom. I gravitate toward other fanfiction writers who also wish to do more than just write about characters with the same name. We want to write--and read--stories with characters who act like the ones we love. One of my greatest compliments was when someone said that though I wrote a romance involving Snape, I still kept him like he was in the books. But more people are willing just to read anything with the names even if the character acts nothing like themselves.
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"Maybe this wouldn't even have been an issue, except for the fact that in this age of technology, you can't get away with writing fan fiction, doing a find and replace, pulling it and publishing the work as your own without people making noise about its true origins."
I agree. The internet has definitely changed everything.
Someone who interacted with the author before she published 50 Shades posted discussions she had with her over the internet. The author shows disrespect toward the other fans of both Twilight and her own work. That she'd take the hate as long as she gets a lot of money to do so. And that's what has happened. And people are going crazy for something that, as Laura said, appears to be poorly written and edited. From what I gather from reviews on Goodreads, it's not even an accurate description of true BDSM. I also gather that the reason it's so popular amongst soccer moms is that it's classified as erotic, but compared to other examples, it's downright vanilla.
Eventually, there's going to be a backlash. Everything popular eventually gets one. I'm not sure when, but the rumblings are there on the internet. And people may call me spiteful or jealous that someone else has gotten success where it was undeserved, but it is the truth.
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Joined: 1/10/2012
Posts: 192
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Alexandria - I'm okay with disagreeing on that one point. Characterization aside, I agree with everything else you said. There are absolutely ff writers who religiously follow the canon of stories, and lots who don't. I absolutely agree in that respect that it's much harder to stay true to the characters and continue their story. That's not what I was getting at, though.
Anyways, in regards to the issues about James's attitude toward fans - I can vouch for the authenticity of that, and it's one of the reasons I think she's undeserving of all this "fame." The inaccuracy of how she portrays BDSM is another thing that bothers me. Here we are, doing our research like good little writers, and she's spewing drivel that gets published, to hell with what's accurate. I don't care what your subject matter: if you don't know it intimately, DO YOUR RESEARCH.
And sure, I'm bitter too, I'll admit. But not solely out of jealousy that she's a published and now popular author. I'm mad because I think she makes writers look bad. I'm mad because she somehow got away with publishing something in its draft form. I'm mad because she didn't do her research, and stepped all over her fans on her way to the top... of whatever pile of garbage over which she's now presiding. I also think at some point she will have to answer for all of her shiftiness, and that will in turn reveal her true character. But I'm still bitter that she'll do that with an overflowing bank account and a smirk.
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Joined: 4/30/2011
Posts: 662
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She didn't do her research? She disrespects her fans? I'm going to go look for my torch. I think I placed it somewhere between my candles and zombie apocalypse kit. (That last bit was sarcasm.) This situation is definitely deserving of the torch. Here we all work hard to make our works publishable. We do our research. We show respect towards each other. I hate people like this who make all my blood, sweat, and tears look like folly. I love words, and work hard to present them well. I'm so angry I'm going to weep. I pity those who believe she's worthy of praise.
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Joined: 1/10/2012
Posts: 192
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*Raises her own torch* Hear, hear, LeeAnna! Exactly! You've so eloquently summed up what I was trying to get across, but probably got bogged down by my emotions. Thank you!! I feel better now knowing that it wasn't just a case of me being too sensitive.
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Joined: 8/21/2011
Posts: 394
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Last week, my local newspaper (Philadelphia Inquirer) ran an article on 50 Shades (http://www.philly.com/philly/entertainment/20120426_ap_menarefanstoooffiftyshadesofgrey.html).
I had glanced at it then (just read the whole thing now) and thought, "Hey, that's the book that's the subject of a thread on Book Country!" Well, read this article - it just might make your eyes bleed if you're already greatly irked by the success of James and this work. Apparently, it's being viewed as books that are helping people's relationships! Even Dr. Oz dedicated a show to the books.
I have no interest in reading the books - not even for "research" purposes. Especially because I don't want to add to James' apparently astronomically growing bank account.
It is disheartening as someone who has spent many years working on my books and only recently gotten the courage to share them with readers to elicit feedback to see someone else doing everything, well, wrong, and raking in the fame and fortune while misrepresenting writers to the world.
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Joined: 1/10/2012
Posts: 192
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Exactly, Angela! Well said. And I'm going to wait until I'm in an extremely forgiving mood to read that article - especially if it's applauding her poorly written "books" as relationship help. (This might never happen where these books are concerned.)
Seriously?! Discussions of anal fisting and babies who "like sex already" falls under Relationship Help and not Totally Inappropriate Subject Matter??!!
Sorry for typing that. Sincerely, gang. I'm sorry for even putting that in my comment. But imagine my disgust and horror when passages about both taken from the book were floated to me. *wretches*
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Joined: 3/12/2011
Posts: 376
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@Laura - no need to apologize. We're all adults, and we're discussing books, which may occasionally have material that's offensive. If we can't talk about what is and isn't, and why, who can? Recall that at one point, mixed-race marriages were on the Do Not Mention list.
NOTE! I'm not equating those things in any way *except* to say that as authors, we're one of the groups society counts on to hold a mirror up to itself and say "Y'know, we're really being ignorant about this" or "Yeah, we're pretty much right about this one; it really belongs on the 'wrong and bad' list". But that means we have to talk about them, and that means you shouldn't feel bad for mentioning them.
That said, the way it's described it doesn't sound like something that could help a relationship...
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Joined: 1/10/2012
Posts: 192
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Thanks, Robert. It just felt inappropriate to even write it. In terms of the context, from what I've seen, the first is an act of their BDSM relationship that the Dom wants. The second takes place in the third and final book of the series, when the Dom and Sub are now happily married and she's pregnant. After having sex, he asks her what the baby is doing and she says, dancing around. He makes a comment something to the effect of, "the baby must already like sex." I agree that I'm skeptical that this type of series has a positive relationship-driven message, but whatever. I just got a lecture via text from my sister-in-law, who thinks they're wonderful so far. *gags*
I simply wished her well with the nipple clamps and hot wax.
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Joined: 4/30/2011
Posts: 662
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Relationship help? Seriously? I suddenly have a strong desire to go book burning. I wonder if anyone will lend me their copy of Shades. Warning, you will never get it back.
On a serious note, sex is an important part of the relationship, but not the only part. Real relationships take work, and strive on communication and trust. While what you and your partner do together can vary (some people are into BDSM, and some aren't), it's the part of the relationship that can be solved by a position book and a couple of toys, not some hack job novel. I know from experience. (Yes, I just admitted that.) Experimentation can be a couples activity, which is known to strengthen relationships. Not only that, but it can remain a fun, private little secret for the couple. If you need Shades, then I think it's time you need to work on your communication sans romance novels.
And Laura, don't worry about being upset. The whole vampires sparkle thing from Twilight still wrankles my feathers every once in a while because I actually have a disease that makes me severely photosensitive. Check out my last blog post if you want to know more:
http://www.militaryhousewriter.blogspot.com/
The public will never learn when to burn this trash.
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Joined: 10/20/2011
Posts: 350
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If anyone is interested in reading the conversations James had regarding her time in fandom, here is a link: http://sleepyvalentina.com/icy">http://sleepyvalentina.com/icy.
@Laura: "The inaccuracy of how she portrays BDSM is another thing that bothers me. Here we are, doing our research like good little writers, and she's spewing drivel that gets published, to hell with what's accurate. I don't care what your subject matter: if you don't know it intimately, DO YOUR RESEARCH."
Here's an article about it:
http://hidingfromsomeone.tumblr.com/post/22270527450/fifty-shades-the-philadelphia-incident-im-not">http://hidingfromsomeone.tumblr.com/post/22270527450/fifty-shades-the-philadelphia-incident-im-not
It's a very insightful article from someone who practices BDSM about the concerns of the book. The only thing I am hesitated to say is that BDSM is "illegal." The truth is that there aren't laws banning it outright. But if the police were to become involved--and that's only if a complaint is made to the police or they raid a BDSM event for whatever reason--than it's prosecuted as either
battery or assault. This article: https://ncsfreedom.org/key-programs/consent-counts/consent-counts/item/580-consent-and-bdsm-the-state-of-the-law.html">https://ncsfreedom.org/key-programs/consent-counts/consent-counts/item/580-consent-and-bdsm-the-state-of-the-law.html explains it.
And I know another thing is that since James is British, her characters sound it, that she didn't bother trying to make it authentic to the Pacific Northwest or America.
"I'm mad because I think she makes writers look bad."
I agree. When James started to become wildly popular, my fellow fanfiction writers and I moaned. 50 Shades of Grey represents everything people believe about fanfiction that is bad, a perception many of us wish to change.
And not even to mention the stigma attached to romance writers anyway that some authors who clearly write it bristle when their books are described as "romance."
@Angela: "Especially because I don't want to add to James' apparently astronomically growing bank account."
You don't have to, necessarily. There are people who saved copies of "Master of the Universe" before James pulled it off the internet. And they are willing to part with it for free.
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Joined: 1/10/2012
Posts: 192
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Okay, I've come full circle on this issue. I've decided that I'm going to use this instance to fuel my own desire to get published. I want to show people that for every E.L. James out there, there are a handful of great writers like me - and us! Maybe if I actually get something published, it will help balance the ol' scales a bit. What do you guys think? 
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Joined: 8/21/2011
Posts: 394
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Couldn't agree with you more, Laura. My plans for the next few months are to post new drafts of the books I've already posted here, plus chapters from the third part in the series, then get heavy duty back into querying. My work is definitely not the best stuff out there, but I've worked really hard on it and I didn't steal anything (at least not intentionally!) and I would love to see it published.
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Joined: 10/20/2011
Posts: 350
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I agree as well, Laura. I'm getting closer and closer to the completion of my first draft of "The Wedding Game." And I'm both dreading and looking forward to revisions, which I may spend the entire summer doing in order to start querying in the fall. We'll prove that you can make it with good writing, good research and good characters!
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Joined: 4/30/2011
Posts: 662
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I'm trying to use this situation to drive me to write as well. I'm cranking out my additional chapters, and I look forward to preparing them for the BC once over. Then I should be able to move into final revisions.
I've gotten especially driven when I saw a bookseller at B&N hand a lady Shades instead of recommending something better. I almost ran over there and shouted, "There are better things! Don't support lazy writing. That crap is an insult to writers everywhere." but I was with my husband who would have held me back. I know she was doing her job as a retail person, but I have found honesty always increased my sales. For some reason seeing that brought up a primal feeling that made me feel protective of use who actually work on our writing. I felt like a mother lion. I wouldn't have been surprised it I started to growl. It wouldn't be the first time I've put myself between a stranger and a bad book.
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Joined: 10/20/2011
Posts: 350
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@LeeAnna: I know the feeling. There were times I saw someone pick up Twilight and I wanted to run over, knock the book out of their hand and point out other books for them to read.
I was reading an article, I believe in the NYT, saying that there are libraries refusing to stock 50 Shades of Grey because they are pornographic.
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Joined: 4/30/2011
Posts: 662
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Not only are they pornographic, but inaccurately pornographic. I call it Hollywood syndrome. That is where, no matter how impossible it is, people enjoy it anyway. And when I mean impossible, I don't mean in the imagination way. I mean that first it should be well researched so that people who know their stuff will respect you. Second, the story must be well written enough so that people can connect the dots, so that it "makes sense." This includes relationships. I read the blogs that you posted, Alexandria, and from what I can tell, the MC's love interest more abuses her than anything else. Then she marries him. Yeah, that's healthy for people to read. I thought Edward Cullen was bad. What ever happened to reading Jane Austen, or the Bronte sisters? Jesus. (Could be the long winded prose.)
Anyway, I think we should all do our part to make sure people support good writing. Good writing gets so little respect these days from the general populous. Most wouldn't know it if it ran over and shat in their $10 dollar mochachino-latte-caputhingy. Sorry that my cynic came out, but it's the only way I stay sane.
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Joined: 10/20/2011
Posts: 350
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I was wondering: With the BDSM community coming out against 50 Shades and warning that people who try to follow the book may be endangering themselves, how soon until the first news story: "Couple rushed to hospital while re-enacting scene from racy novel"? And that might start the public backlash I know is coming, with those experts who were praising it now condemning it.
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Joined: 4/30/2011
Posts: 662
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The backlash could be really ugly. Do you know why there are experts praising it. Some one who manages them or their show came along and said, "People really like this. You should support it." In the end it is all about how many people you get paying attention to you. I actually met a writer who Oprah supported back when she had her show. (He was a nice guy and a very good writer. I even have a signed copy of his book.) He spoke to one of my classes in college and said that if he told anyone before it was announced that he had made her recommended list, then she would withdraw her support. The "support" is super political just like being a part of a large publishing company. If their is any backlash, the support will be torn away and James will lose all credibility. Remember Tiny Little Pieces?
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Joined: 10/20/2011
Posts: 350
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I realize the support is all because it's popular and because it's selling. Last week, I was watching either ET or Access Hollywood and the reporter was interviewing Rihanna for "Battleship." She had a copy of 50 Shades and asked Rihanna if she had heard about it. The singer kinda did and the reporter asked if she would read it. You can tell Rihanna was thinking of the best way to say "Never in a million years" while trying not to alienate anyone who likes the series. And I realized if I had been fortunate enough to publish something this year, I'd have to do the same in interviews myself. While I'm sure they would like to have people who diss the book, that person would be cast as the "villain" for hating such a popular book no matter how right their criticisms are. But I also know that when the backlash hits, those "haters" will suddenly become the go-tos as the experts praising the book will be backpedaling very fast. And I hope someone calls them out on it.
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Joined: 1/26/2012
Posts: 28
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They were talking about this book on the radio yesterday and I thought, "That's the one they're talking about on BC!" I'm not sure how I avoided hearing about it before this, but I guess probably because I don't watch much TV. Based on what I've learned here, it sounds awful, and I will probably flip through a copy in the bookstore to sample the awfulness out of morbid curiosity, but I won't read or support it.
HOWEVER, what if it had been well-researched and relatively well-written? In other words, if James had done her research, and crafted a well-written novel, would you still be against it based on its premise, which could arguably be considered plagiarism?
I'm really curious because I feel like this case is quite murky. It reminds me a bit of the debates in the 90s over rap and whether or not is was plagiarism because it takes musical riffs and mixes them to create new music. (Remember the clip of Vanilla Ice trying to describe how his riff was different from "Under Pressure"? Yeah, I couldn't hear the difference either... and now I've shown my age.)
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Joined: 1/10/2012
Posts: 192
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Wow, I'm away for a few days and I see I've missed a lot. You ladies have been busy. I have something to share as well. I was subjected to a forced conversation this weekend with my SIL (yes, the one who texted me about 50 Shades and swears it's breathed new life into her sex life) about the books. She told me they really weren't about BDSM, but about the relationship, and as soon as she began to wax poetic about the crap, I had to start chewing on my tongue. Let's just say it's still sore two days later.
I did concede that it could have been anything that came on the scene and got famous-though, regrettably, it was some poorly written fan fiction passed off as novels. We talked about the notion that nothing is truly original in the sense that we're all inspired by something. I told her my reasons for being against the stuff - that it had nothing to do with the idea of BDSM, I told her. But, in my heart, I was still shooting flaming arrows through the series and dancing around the pyre.
No matter how much I tried to tell myself that she was just another of the many lemmings in this scenario, the books and the knowledge that my friends and family are reading them still make me shake with rage. I feel compelled to argue against them. I don't know why, frankly. Why should I care that my SIL is and will probably always be a nitwit? That my sister has no taste in books and never will? SIL doesn't read at all, she told me (too busy with two kids). Maybe it's because I'm appalled that of all the books that made her read again, it wasn't Pride and Prejudice and Zombies (look, I'm willing to throw her a bone because she'll NEVER read Austen), it wasn't the Harry Potter series, which I personally think are a wonderful, masterful show of creativity and compelling fiction. It was 50 Shades of Suck.
I know this smacks soundly of bitterness (*wink*), but I feel like I can honest here without judgement. Personally, I want to hide under a rock, wait for all these idiots to finish with the series and get on with their damn lives so they can stop talking to me about it, and then wait for the sun to come out again.
*sigh*
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Joined: 1/10/2012
Posts: 192
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@Ella - Sorry, meant to address your post, but as you can see above, I went off on a tangent.
I think it all comes down to intent. I'm unfamiliar with copyright law and all that, but here's a start:
Literary theft. Plagiarism occurs when a writer duplicates another writer's language or ideas and then calls the work his or her own.
At its core, in the case of 50 Shades, it was created from something and in a(n online) community that, essentially, engages in plagiarism. Fan fiction, though flattering to the author, is taking the author's ideas, creating different situations, and another takes credit. I've seen ff authors try to copyright their fan fiction. I think that's a bit ridiculous.
But in the case of 50, can James legally claim that it's truly her own work? I'm not a lawyer, but methinks if Stephenie Meyer's attorneys wanted to, they could have a field day with this one.
Copyright laws protect writers' words as their legal property. To avoid the charge of plagiarism, writers take care to credit those from whom they borrow and quote.
All James had to do (possibly) to avoid all of this potential and real backlash was to credit Meyer with inspiring her work, and maybe the fan fiction community for providing a place to begin her creative journey. Call me a placater, but it might have satisfied a lot of angry people.
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Joined: 4/30/2011
Posts: 662
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I'm with Laura. The subject matter, even if well researched, is not the problem for me. Poor research is a bad writing practice to begin with, but she has worse problems. Aside from the atrocious writing, she wrote it as fan fiction and then tried to pass it off as her own. Everyone in the writing community knows that it used to be FF, yet she does not step forward and support this notion. She is basically lying to keep her fame. These kinds of actions from a writer makes us look bad, especially if we want to self-publish. If the backlash does come, let's hope the self-published community doesn't get any of the blowback.
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Joined: 10/20/2011
Posts: 350
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@Ella: "HOWEVER, what if it had been well-researched and relatively well-written? In other words, if James had done her research, and crafted a well-written novel, would you still be against it based on its premise, which could arguably be considered plagiarism?"
To answer your question, my original problem with 50 Shades of Grey was the fact that it had first been a fanfiction and the author had only done a find-and-replace to publish it. As both a reader and writer of fanfiction, I personally find it wrong to publish a slightly altered fanfiction as an original work. It seems tainted. Also, the summaries said it was smut. A popular perception of fanfiction is that it is all sexual fantasies. The publication of this series and its history only serves to perpetuate that myth. I only learned later that it was poorly written, poorly edited and hardly researched, which added to my displeasure of the series.
As Laura and others have noted, fanfiction isn't so much a plagiarism case (except in the case of Cassandra Claire), but a copyright issue. It exists in a gray zone, but most authors leave fanfiction writers alone because it's usually not wise to piss off your fans. Until they try to make money off their fanfiction, then it isn't a really an issue. Some authors have asked that fanfiction not be written and most fans do oblige them. Those are the people who are writing fanfiction out of love for the original work. But as said, many writers are using fanfiction as a cover to test out their writing. I don't like this trend because I don't feel it's a good measure of one's writing abilities. A person may think they are a good writer when really all their popularity spawns from people who are only scanning for the names of their favorite characters and don't worry about silly things like characterization and good plots. On the other hand, a good writer may be discouraged because of the fans who care about characterization and staying true to canon writing negative reviews because these writers don't stay true to the original work. This is why I beg people to let their original work stand on their own merits. I myself have never mixed my fanfiction and my original stories.
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@Laura: "But in the case of 50, can James legally claim that it's truly her own work? I'm not a lawyer, but methinks if Stephenie Meyer's attorneys wanted to, they could have a field day with this one."
It's a bit late for that. The time for Meyers' people to make a move was when it was first published, not before a bidding war started on it. They would've had more of an argument then or for Little, Brown and Company to have some how blocked the bidding war. But I think Meyers may have been damned if she did, damned if she didn't. If she did try to bring legal action, she may have alienated fans. As I said, it's not advisable to piss off fandom.
"All James had to do (possibly) to avoid all of this potential and real backlash was to credit Meyer with inspiring her work, and maybe the fan fiction community for providing a place to begin her creative journey. Call me a placater, but it might have satisfied a lot of angry people."
Well, her publisher now includes this note on the copyright page: “The author published an earlier serialized version of this story online with different characters as ‘Master of the Universe’ under the pseudonym Snowqueen Icedragon.” If you notice, though, there is still no mention of "Twilight" or Stephanie Meyers.
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Joined: 1/26/2012
Posts: 28
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By the way, I completely agree with has been said regarding plagiarism here. She most definitely should have given Meyers credit, at the very least. It just seems that there are two separate issues with the work-- which makes it doubly bad and doubly frustrating for those who try to get it right with our own characters and own ideas.
I was just playing devil's advocate
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Joined: 4/30/2011
Posts: 662
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There is nothing wrong with playing the devil's advocate. We all need it sometimes to keep things into perspective.
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Joined: 10/20/2011
Posts: 350
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@Ella: It was a fair question to ask. For a while, we were making a big deal of the bad writing and the poor research.
It seems 50 Shades of Grey is just a series that starts off smelling bad and gets stinker the more you learn about it.
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Joined: 8/21/2011
Posts: 394
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Wait - they're making 50 shades into a movie?!?!?!
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1684827/fifty-shades-of-grey-anastasia-steele-casting-choices.jhtml
I have been spending the last few weeks painstakingly revising the first book of my trilogy - carefully reading it word by word; keeping notes on plot points, spellings, characters to check against the other two books; paring the text down by almost another 10,000 words - and for what?
Sorry. Just a bit bitter here (can you tell?). . .
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Joined: 4/30/2011
Posts: 662
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Angela, I get how you feel. Hands of Ash, all 34 chapters, are pretty much complete rewrites since I started writing it in high school. Then there is all the editing that I've done, and have still to do. I've cut the work so far down by about 20,000 words so far, but with the addition of the 14 to the first 20 chapters, my work might end up just under 200,000 words. I hope I can trim it down more. I've already cut and consolidated scenes just in my outline to clean things up. It's like I said before, James is making all of us who work our freaking asses off look bad. I've never wanted to spit on someone before, but I sure do now.
Someone should hold a book burning for Shades held by pissed off writers who hate the book due to the poor editing and research, not on content. As the books burn in the background, they can all give cogent arguments on why people should not read it. And then post it on YouTube.
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