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Joined: 1/23/2014
Posts: 44
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Hi there, ok .. so i've gotten another 1 nib review... and once again, Jay .. cheers. its all good, have a thick skin.
Now, don't get me wrong, I hear what your saying... obviously I just don't have the skills to implement them in a way that sits well with you (yet?). Either that or I just don't get it
Anyway... I'm putting this in an open format to invoke some discussion about the way we offer criticism.
As an art director, part of my job is to take the artwork that someone thinks is the next golden lion winning piece (normally the fragile creative type that are drawn towards this field) and give feedback. Offer opinions and changes, choices of layout typography and so on. Occasionally I get a piece of complete crap (POCC). If I said what was going through my mind some times when I look as these pieces of crap it would crush the individuals that I'm dealing with. I approach these cases by example.
What I'm mean is. I take the POCC, then offer a different approach to it. a ' How about you place element A here and element B here, or use, this typeface with this typeface, try using the golden ratio and apply that to this layout - use some clear space here and here ... and so on. If needed I show them, by re-working the layout with them.
What I've found is that, occasionally I get a "screw you man" response, but most of the time I get a lightbulb moment and a much better result on the second or third attempt.
The same analogy can be applied to Music, film, anything... "try playing that bass line behind the beat, like this (and show them)" What happens if we use this footage here instead of here?
So, maybe when giving a "bad" review, how about taking a para or two, and offering an alternative. IE re-write said para or two in a way that works for you. You may get a screw you man, but you may also give the person that the push they need to reach that illusive lightbulb moment?
Any thoughts?
Cheers
Al
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I dunno...personally, (as a writer), I'd rather ask for that sort of thing than have someone just go ahead and do it. And as a reviewer, I don't think I'd be all that comfortable rewriting something someone else wrote unless they'd specifically asked for recommendations.
It's an interesting thought, though.
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Joined: 11/11/2013
Posts: 43
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I might sometimes give someone a suggested rewrite on a short sentence or phrase, not because I think they're going to copy it verbatim into their story, but to clarify what I'm talking about in my comment. Personally, I really wouldn't want someone to take a crack at rewriting my story for me.
I said this in another thread, but I tend to ignore the number of nibs and focus on the feedback offered in the review. If it's specific to the story I've posted and constructive in nature, I've got something I can work with to improve the story and my writing.
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Joined: 10/15/2013
Posts: 62
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I've rewritten a sentence or part of a sentence to get my point across to another writer, but that's as far as I'd go. I've received good, constructive criticism on my work though, that has really helped me see bad habits I continually fall into with my writing. I think the main point you might be making, Yellowcake, is that people need to be helpful when they review and not just say, "This is all wrong, you have no talent." There's supposedly a rule of thumb that we need to hear 7 positive things for every negative statement. I don't think it's a reasonable gauge on here necessarily, but I do always try to point out things I like in someone's writing before I just dive into the things I think aren't working. There was only one case when I reviewed a book and then the author went off about how it was ridiculous that I would go into so much detail on a children's book. She took such offense at what I'd said that she then seemed to want to shred me apart. I noted that she was thin-skinned and won't bother to review any more of her work because in my attempt to be helpful, I just upset her. As for me, I'm so grateful that anyone takes the time to read and review my work that I pay close attention to the negatives because they almost always make a totally valid point.
I usually hate to mention any names, but I want to say that I love having Julie Artz as a connection. She gives me incredibly useful critiques, and I notice in her own writing she pays attention to critiques she gets from people and then immediately implements a good share of them. She exemplifies the best of what we want to do together on Book Country.
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Joined: 11/11/2013
Posts: 43
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Aw shucks, you're making me blush!
In all seriousness, I get as much out of reviewing as I do out of getting reviews on my own writing. And I enjoy it, so it's a win-win.
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Joined: 1/23/2014
Posts: 44
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Thanks for joining in guys ... I think you've hit the nail on the head "imawake"
Yeah... don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "please sir can you do my homework for me" .. more of "Well if that's not working for you, show me how it can work, that way I can learn something and relate to it directly". Maybe its just me that works that way?
I try not to point out flaws in things unless I can offer a thought/way that may improve it. (and when it come to creative writing I'm so vastly under qualified I tend just keep quiet.)
Sometimes it helps .. sometimes it doesn't. That's just the way I was taught by my peers back in the old days of graphic design (oh the fond memories of hours in a dark room and getting high on spray glue and lighter fluid - old school designers will know what I'm on about 
- Maybe creative writing is different? Maybe it's an aussie/english thing? maybe its just the magnetisation of the southern hemisphere ... but I'm just not that precious about something I've done (maybe I've been commercial art for too long?). If someone has a better way of doing it, Hey I'm all ears... I may even learn something?
Cheers
Al
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Joined: 10/15/2013
Posts: 78
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Hey Al, I know the feeling myself. A proud owner of the one nib too!
My personal opinion of the matter is we should take reviews in context, read through to see how much the person reviewing has seen. In the case of my one nib it was clear only the first sentence or paragraph at most had been read and many of the questions/issues raised were context related. Keep that in mind when reading one nibbers.
I agree with imawake as well. I've had the benefit of some great reviews on Book Country from people (like Ian) who gave good, honest feedback. Gave me some great direction to take the WIP. Sure there are imperfections to the BC review system but I think, on the whole, it works great. A proper review of your work will indeed include an example paragraph and a suggested alternative as you mentioned. A poor review likely won't, so just take what you can and move on.
Writing is wonderfully subjective and even the best of intentions are coated in personal preference.
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Joined: 11/11/2013
Posts: 43
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I, too, received a one nib review based on the first couple hundred words of my story. Maybe we should start a support group
I agree with DC that even the best reviews reflect personal preference. That's why I tend to quote the phrase or sentences that I don't think work rather than suggest a specific revision. Just as there are multiple ways to screw a scene up, there are multiple valid ways to fix it.
And despite the one nibs, I also think Book Country is a great format for workshopping. I learn a lot from reading and reviewing, but I also learn a lot from these discussions. What's more, they offer a great deal of support in what can sometimes be a lonely process.
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Yellowcake wrote:
• Now, don't get me wrong, I hear what your saying... obviously I just don't have the skills to implement them in a way that sits well with you (yet?). Either that or I just don't get it
You make the mistake of thinking that I'm giving my own opinions, and registering my like/dislike of the writing. I'm not. I'm applying the standards of the publishing industry as they would apply to you, were that posting a submission—except that the publisher won't tell you why or where it was rejected. It seems to me that if you hope to pass the test of the acquiring editor's office it's not what you want to hear, but it is what you need to know. And you will not get that kind of information from people who know no more about what a publisher is seeking than the one asking the question.
The value of the online writing sites lies in the chance to talk to like minded people, and in reaction to the writing. But it is not the place to learn how to write for publication because the vast majority of people commenting have no more training for the profession than the nonfiction techniques we all learn in school—and are unaware that more is required.
The problem with getting few stars, or nibs, is that the site's star system defines the ratings in terms of readiness for publication, as needing editing, or a bit of rewriting, etc. But it does not recognize the very real fact that if the approach and presentation is based on our schooldays English Composition rules, and if we rate writing on a scale of one to ten, where seven is publishable and ten is godhood, the vast majority of postings are not yet on that one to ten scale.
Good news? Hell no. But that is the reality in the publishers office and the bookstore. The problem is, we're not told that in our schooling, and pros are not visiting sites like this, critiquing.
Everyone posting on this site is sincerely trying to write prose that will captivate and entertain, They're good people. And when they say, "This is what I think," it's sincerely given in the spirit of helping. The intent is there. But intent doesn't make it to the reader. And that sincerely given advice comes from someone who cannot convince a publisher to send a contract.
There is only one place to get reliable information on what readers respond to, reliably, and that's from the pros.
And yes, I understand what you mean by making suggestions gently. But you're providing those suggestions to people who are on the verge of acceptance, who have at least a little professional training. But the vast majority of those posting on any online writing site are still unaware that a scene on the page is very unlike one in film or stage presentations, and model their work on what they see on TV and film. They have zero knowledge of the structural elements of a scene, and think point of view refers to which personal pronouns we choose to use.
Sol Stein had an interesting view. When he had a column on the old America Online Writers Club he had been an author, screenwriter, editor, playwright and publisher. When someone took him to task for not being more gentle, he said, "If I can talk you out of being a writer I've done two people a favor. I've saved you from wasting endless days at the keyboard. I've also helped the editors who you will afflict with the work."
No editor is going to make suggestions of the kind you say you offer artists unless the work is close enough that there's at least an implied, "And let me see the result." And to reach the point where that happens takes a lot more than sincerity and desire. It takes work, study, a bit of mentoring, and more.
So how do you tell someone that gently, without pointing out the result of the problem? And given that in doing that you have, in effect, told them their precious child is ugly, how do you convince them to listen—especially in the face of a chorus of, "All you need to do is read, write, and edit."?
So my view is that while people have the right to post and ask for reaction, trying to dictate the terms of the response is a mistake.
--edited by Jay Greenstein on 3/31/2014, 2:36 PM--
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Joined: 6/7/2013
Posts: 1356
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Really interesting discussion going on here!
I agree that it is often futile to try to dictate the terms of the response that you are getting on your writing, but I do think it is helpful for a reviewer to know where a writer is at in the process of their book. BC members can use their Book Details to frame each draft that they post on Book Country for the reader. Don't be afraid to be really specific about what parts of your book you have questions about. Having context can't hurt, after all.
We also had a really cool guestblogging team last week--2 professors from Harvard who study feedback. Their post is called "How to Get Writing Feedback That Actually Helps." The idea here is that there are strategies you can use when you ask for feedback to get what you need for wherever you are in the process, and they applied those strategies for how we collect and exchange feedback on the BC site. Check it out.
Lucy
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Joined: 1/23/2014
Posts: 44
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You make the mistake of thinking that I'm giving my own opinions, and registering my like/dislike of the writing. I'm not. I'm applying the standards of the publishing industry as they would apply to you, were that posting a submission—
Fair Call, I guess I was/am approaching the feedback from different perspective, Im looking at this as a learning exercise (maybe thats the wrong approach?). However I still feel that I can learn a lot from yourself and others like you that offer the brutal honesty. I'm not upset or cranky in the least at your feedback, I'm appreciative if anything. (would you care if I was... probably not )
And yes, I understand what you mean by making suggestions gently. But you're providing those suggestions to people who are on the verge of acceptance, who have at least a little professional training.
Very true Jay ... I didn't think of it that way. When I'm dealing with juniors or interns in the studio environment, they have indeed done, or are doing there college/TAFE/courses ect in the design field. Also I'm working on deadlines, so I don't have time for them to learn in their own time.
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Yellowcake wrote:
• Fair Call, I guess I was/am approaching the feedback from different perspective, Im looking at this as a learning exercise (maybe thats the wrong approach?). However I still feel that I can learn a lot from yourself and others like you that offer the brutal honesty.
But that's my point. Let's assume that Joe Normal, a nice man, decides he would like to write a novel. And like almost everyone, he doesn't head for some books on writing technique, or a writing course because he believes writing is writing, and school took care of that with twelve years of study and practice. Hell, he even had an undergrad creative writing course (don't get me started on those). So he does what everyone does these days and looks online, at the various writers venues, never knowing that the vast majority of the people there know no more than he does about what an editor wants to see—and not see—then does he. And with great sincerity, he'll be told to just write and get it down, because it can always be fixed in editing, and if he doesn't write it there'll be nothing to fix.
Doesn't that sound reasonable? It's dead wrong, of course, because at the moment Joe, who just learned the term point of view, and who is excited to be using writerly terms like POV, has been told that the term refers to the personal pronouns used, as in first and third person. The nuance, he'll be told, lies in close or far perspective. And his writing vocabulary is expanding—he thinks. But to an acquiring editor, the pronouns you tell the story with are mostly a matter of writer's choice. Point of view is something very different (look at this if you're uncertain: http://jaygreenstein.wordpress.com/2011/09/22/the-grumpy-writing-coach-8/), and necessary.
See where I'm going with this? You'll get lots of advice on how to write, but how much of it will be accurate when the one giving the advice cannot sell their own work to a publisher, and learned what they know from others in the same situation? If you've ever played the game, Whispering Down the Lane you'll know what I mean. The advice, on a given point might be spot on, but given that the reader hasn't the knowledge to separate the accurate from the well intentioned, does it make sense as a way to learn any profession? I certainly don't think so.
That's why I, for the most part, try to show the writer why and where the work would fail to hold an acquiring editor's interest, give an overview of the differences between the type of writing we know and that we need to know, and then recommend a professional source of knowledge.
I'm not discounting the value of sites like this because even someone who gives inaccurate advice us useful because if we write with skill the reader won't notice small errors because they'll be too caught up in the story. The fact that the reader "fell out of the story" at the point where they commented is of more importance than the solution they suggest because it represents a "lump" in the prose. Any fix they recommend is how they would handle the problem. But as an example, I've seen lots of places where someone inexperienced said there needs to be more description, when the real problem is that the POV isn't strong enough to make the reader know what matters to the protagonist as they know it. And on that particular point, note that before any kind of fix can be made the writer needs to fully understand point of view and what it can do for their story—which brings me back to learning from the pros and applying the knowledge according to your personal style.
Hope this clarifies.
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Joined: 2/24/2014
Posts: 19
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Is the purpose of BookCountry to be a pre-rejection rejection service? Or a chance for budding writers to offer up a sample for review and gain feedback on how to improve?
I've had two reviews so far and both showed consistent problems with my work (even though I got full nibs). This means that I can now go back and tweak it and avoid those problems as I progress. This is valuable feedback.
If all I got was feedback that stated that my work was not up to scratch and try again, but no pointers on WHERE and HOW it was not up to scratch, I'd pack up and go back to DeviantArt and let the schoolkids help me out again.
I have been a technical writer since about '98 and putting the red pen through other people's work is a daily task. I expect my work to come back full of red ink as well. Not only does it make for a better end result, it also shows that the reviewer has actually read it.
It should never be treated as offensive criticism UNLESS the comments diminish the work, with no suggestion of what should be done instead.
That sort of review or criticism is of absolutely zero value. I hope I don't see it here at BC.
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Joined: 11/11/2013
Posts: 43
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I hope it's the latter, JCW! Rejection is bad enough without pre-rejection rejection.
So far, I've found reviewers to be helpful and constructive. I've only had one that was along the lines of "this is great, keep up the good work!" which, while flattering, didn't help me get from where I am now to published
It's fun to see another tech writer on Book Country, by the way. Although I'm focusing on creative pursuits now, I have quite a few user guides, online help systems, and training guides under my belt from my previous life.
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Joined: 10/14/2012
Posts: 229
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Hi Guys
Been a while since I checked in.
I have considered that I fell foul of a rather blunt response a couple of times... didn't think it necessarily correct, but took what I could from it. The work still wasn't getting accepted though.
Eventually I went right back to scratch instead of tweaking the edges, reluctantly putting my work aside, and reading up on the craft of writing... Only then did I learn enough to know just how far my work was from publishing.
I've recently gone back and looked at my early reviews here on BC, and Jay, if I'd just taken your words as gospel back then I'd have saved myself from half a dozen semi-revisions.
The one comment that stood out was when I kept banging on that my plot was a wonder to behold, was that this was irrelevant... the plot only can be appreciated or understood if the writing itself is sufficiently professional to entice readers...reding editors, to complete the entire piece.
I must admit, until I stood back and literally reschooled myself, I didn't even know where to improve. I've now been lucky enough to get a publishing deal and whereas I'm still getting my butt kicked, now by line editors, they'd never have been given the opportunity to kick my butt, but for the advice... the most blunt of the advice, I got here.
Jay, you're my hero... can I mention you inside the cover or on the website?
Mike
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Joined: 6/7/2013
Posts: 1356
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Hi Mike--I am not sure if we've crossed paths here on Book Country yet (though when I looked at your profile picture I do remember seeing that at some point and finding it pretty hilarious). Nice to see you here on the Discussion Boards, and glad for the input!
Also: congrats on the publishing deal! What's happening?
Lucy Silag
Book Country Community and Engagement Manager
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Joined: 11/11/2013
Posts: 43
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What I appreciate about workshopping in a forum like this is the opportunity to practice, practice, practice. It's one thing to read books/articles/forum posts and attend workshops/webinars on craft (trust me, I'm doing that!), but it's entirely another thing to be able to put that into practice in my writing in a consistent and professional way.
It's great to hear from more experienced writers who have been where some of us newbies are now. And it's even great to get the one nib review--it's a wake-up call and a challenge to do better with the next rev...
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Michael R Hagan wrote:• I've now been lucky enough to get a publishing deal and whereas I'm still getting my butt kicked, now by line editors, they'd never have been given the opportunity to kick my butt, but for the advice... the most blunt of the advice, I got here.
Fantastic news. Most of the people I critique just say thanks and toss it aside. Lots of them throw a hissey fit because someone dared find fault with their work. I've been tossed from writer's sites for having the "wrong attitude" and not giving praise. But a couple times a year I'll hear from someone who has achieved publication. I can't take the credit, because they did the work themselves. I'm just the road-sign pointing to information they need. But still, when I hear it it's nice, because you, and those like you, are the reason I keep at it.
• Jay, you're my hero... can I mention you inside the cover or on the website?
Absolutely.
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Joined: 2/24/2014
Posts: 19
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Thanks Julie!
There's not many of us around!
I'm hoping my next career will take hold as I've been doing it too long. I was surprised how difficult it was to write creatively when I first started. My early stuff is TERRIBLE.
Julie Artz wrote:
It's fun to see another tech writer on Book Country, by the way. Although I'm focusing on creative pursuits now, I have quite a few user guides, online help systems, and training guides under my belt from my previous life.
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Joined: 2/24/2014
Posts: 19
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When I saw that you had reviewed my work, Jay, I have to admit I was rather nervous. Then I was kinda stunned to get three nibs from you (humblebrag). Your points are all valid though I have chosen to continue with some of them regardless.
I suspect the reason for some writer's dissapointment or hostility isn't so much from your reviews or the advice you have offered, but rather from the habitually low scoring.
I don't know about others, but I treat the scoring as a log curve. The difference between a 1 and a 2 is barely significant, but the difference between a 4 and a 5 is massive. I'd rather someone message me with advice than leave me a 1 nib review, and I'd rather not review someone's work at all (or send them my suggestions by message) than leave them less than three.
This is my approach and I in no way suggest it is any better than any other approach, but I get e-shouted at a lot less 
--edited by JCW Stevenson on 4/4/2014, 4:28 AM--
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Joined: 11/11/2013
Posts: 43
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I agree with JCW about scoring reviews. I'll admit--I don't give anyone a one nib. I focus my energy on providing specific feedback and know that most of the stories I review will get a three nib, because I want folks to be open to the feedback I've given and not just ignore me because they're bristling over the low nib number. If something is solid, it will get a four nib, and if I am dying to read more, I give it a 5. So that means the majority of folks get three nibs from me.
That's not to say that I cast your review aside due to the one nib, Jay. On the contrary, I downloaded two of the books you recommended, and have been reading through articles, forum posts and articles on craft every chance I get. So I wouldn't assume that everyone tosses your feedback aside just because you don't hear much in response. It's hard to offer gushing thanks to someone who has just eviscerated your writing, but that doesn't mean that evisceration was unjust...
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Joined: 10/14/2012
Posts: 229
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Hey Lucy
Thanks for asking, Bookkus Publishing is releasing my novel, late summer/Autumn this year... Yahoo!
No way it would have been picked up if not for the great advise I picked up here on Book Country, particularly from Jay (a few good natured sparring matches went on, as I remember.)
Not to plug it, but so as not to sound like I'm being all mysterious either, it's Demiurge: Blood of the Innocent. It used to be called 'The Desolate' when it was up here, and has had quite a few titles since then; probably one for every third redraft undertaken... Ouch!
Jay, I was given the very opportunity to make mention of the help you gave me, on the website in answer to a comment. (maybe more than convenient.  ) You can check it out on
http://michaelrhagan.com/coffee-shop-comments-messages-questions-say-hello-make-home/
Hope that works, but basically it's one of not very many things up on www.michaelrhagan.com
Please check you're happy with what's up... if you want anything changed, no probs, just let me know here or on mikeandsharon@hotmail.co.uk Also if you fancy a link up there, it's the least I can do.
Back on soon, as I'll be starting on my next book and needing to swap reviews...just as soon as I can think of something worth writing... Anything! You know it's quite possible I only had one book in me.
Best of luck,
Mike
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Julie Artz wrote:• I agree with JCW about scoring reviews. I'll admit--I don't give anyone a one nib. I focus my energy on providing specific feedback and know that most of the stories I review will get a three nib, because I want folks to be open to the feedback I've given and not just ignore me because they're bristling over the low nib number. If something is solid, it will get a four nib, and if I am dying to read more, I give it a 5. So that means the majority of folks get three nibs from me.
The rules they give for the number of nibs is unrealistic and centered on how ready the work is for publishing, as in needing a few changes and a bit of editing—they call it a new draft—for more than one or two. But if an editor would reject the work before the end of the second paragraph because they're making the usual new writer, errors none of that criteria applies.
Except for damn few posted works the only POV is that of an external narrator who is "telling" the story 100%. Except for a tiny fraction the reader isn't given context.
But forget that. Any system that asks people who have never achieved publication to judge how ready a piece of writing is for publication, is not providing either useful or accurate information. Comment and reaction is valid and useful. Stars, or nibs, or whatever someone chooses to call them serve only to give unjustified praise and cause unjustified submissions. Look at the requirements for two nibs:
"Needs several more drafts and maybe some reconceptualization."
If the writer thinks POV refers to personal pronoun use; if the writer believes a scene has to do with location and time; if the writer doesn't understand the structure of a scene. They can spend the rest of their life writing drafts and rethinking, but unless they add new tools and knowledge they're trying to solve the wrong problem, like the man who says, "No matter how hard I throw the egg down it still breaks!" the situation won't improve.
So does a nice, sincere, and dedicated writer, who has yet to realize that there's more to the mechanics of writing than the nonfiction technique we learned in school deserve even two nibs? Not accorting to the site rules.
5 nibs — piece is publication-ready
4 nibs — piece needs some editing and minor revisions
3 nibs — piece needs significant revision, perhaps another draft
2 nibs — piece needs several more drafts and maybe some reconceptualization
1
nib — piece needs significant redrafting as well as
reconceptualization - See more at:
http://www.bookcountry.com/Help/ReadReview/WritingReview.aspx#NibRating
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Joined: 11/11/2013
Posts: 43
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I don't disagree with you about the nib system, Jay, and that's exactly why I give mostly three nib reviews. It's also why I try hard as a critiquer to find a couple of things I liked about what the writer did, even if the story has a lot of problems. With a three nib, "Significant revision" lets the writer know it is far from final-draft form, as do my comments, but is a bit gentler than the one nib. Ultimately, I think there's a place for harsher critiques and for ones that include both criticism and encouragement. It's a style difference, possibly a personality difference, and certainly makes for some lively discussions!
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Joined: 8/13/2011
Posts: 272
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I'm somehow not surprised to see Jay reiterate what I call his 'gate-keeper' argument again (frankly, when I saw the thread, I knew it was coming) but I have to say that I disagree vehemently with it.
I'll be honest and say I don't think I know everything about the technical art of writing, but I think Jay misses the soul of writing when he harps on about our education and how we're unqualified to review properly. Jay is very good at the technical side of writing (even if I think he's bad at getting it across), but he never seems to really pivot on to the core of the book. Personally, I think that no matter how well assembled the sentence is, if its context is empty, then there's no reason for it to be there.
Here's a few (abridged) comments I've made in reviews before:
'This is just asking for a lawsuit' (On a plot being very close to a major video games franchise)
'This prologue is largely pointless' (on a prologue explaining the setting)
'The main character comes off as a shrieking narcissist.' (On a character, who well, you can see)
These aren't exactly problems that can be fixed with a large edity stick or a complete rewrite. They're not ones that are just going to go away with better POV or grammar. They're core problems that need to be fixed before the writing needs to be polished. Re-doing a scene's writing when it ruins your plot isn't going to stop it ruining your plot. It's just going convince you the text's been improved when it hasn't.
It's worth remembering that the categories as well as the nibs are there for a reason. I've lost count of how many books I've one nibbed most categories only to turn round and 5 nib 'Continuity' because there hadn't been any continuity errors. Actually using these categories properly and, when necessary, adding in your own, can make a review both more encouraging and more helpful.
Finally, I always find that I 5 nib something when it actually engages and excites me, not simply because it's well put together. It's worth remembering that these books are not isolated intellectual exercises, but something for people to enjoy. If the soul of the book repels or bores you, then no amount of great writing is going to fix that
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Joined: 10/15/2013
Posts: 78
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Good discussion going on here. I'm very interested in seeing how people interpret the nib system and the meaning behind it. It is very reflective of the subjective nature of writing. While it has technical elements that establish a foundation, it's good to bear in mind we all have factors which drive our view on things.
That said, let's try to keep things from specifying specific people or opinions. It should stay an open discussion as opposed to a flame war, in keeping with the BC Community spirit. I don't want to see this thread get deleted because it degrades to that.
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Julie Artz wrote:• It's also why I try hard as a critiquer to find a couple of things I liked about what the writer did, even if the story has a lot of problems.
Unjustified praise is an ego boost. One of the more important skills of a professional writer is the ability to accept accurate and honest criticism, especially when the purpose of it is to improve the work. To insist that one must construct a praise sandwich to protect the writer's tender ego, and seek out minor things to praise—for the sake of praise—is hardly a professional approach to critiquing. And any writer, or hopeful writer who cannot accept an honest critique—who requires words of praise—will never sell their work.
The great Shel Silverstein pointed out that if we accept praise we have no choice but to accept criticism in exactly the same spirit.
• With a three nib, "Significant revision" lets the writer know it is far from final-draft form
You're missing the most important point, which is if they didn't know how to create the prose in the first place—if it's filled with amateur writing because they lack a knowledge of what publishers call craft—they don't have the necessary skills to fix the problems because they don't recognize them as problems. I don't care how many times they revise it, they won't be one inch closer to being published. They'll only get better at writing badly, and set bad habits in stone. And you will hear that from any publisher or agent you care to ask about it.
• Ultimately, I think there's a place for harsher critiques and for ones that include both criticism and encouragement.
You make the mistake of thinking that an accurate critique in some way deserves the term harsh applied to it. You're blaming the one giving the critique blame for the high number of problems. By your standards every single teacher we ever had was harsh because when something was wrong they marked it wrong, and told us why.
No editor, sending you a marked up manuscript praises adequate work for the sake of cheering up the one getting the critique. There's no letter that goes with it that "makes nice" to the writer' ego. They tell you what they see as a problem, and if necessary, why. And that's it. Compared to that, the kind of thing we see here, even the critiques I give, are gentle and forgiving. In a marked up manuscript you'll probably see a page full of comments on every page.
And there's also the problem that every editor is aware of. If you note ten serious problem but conclude with the meaningless, "But with work this could be a winner," all the writer will get from the critique is, "He liked it."
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Timothy Maguire wrote:• I'm somehow not surprised to see Jay reiterate what I call his 'gate-keeper' argument again (frankly, when I saw the thread, I knew it was coming) but I have to say that I disagree vehemently with it.
You're disagreeing vehemently with what you will hear from any acquiring editor you care to ask. I'm just passing on what the pros say. But let's cut to the chase. We've had someone come in and say that by using the techniques publishers and educators recommend, they've achieved publication. And Michael isn't someone who simply accepted what I suggested he look into. He's the perfect before-and-after case.
Like everyone, including myself, he tried the "think" method and it didn't work. But after he made a concerted effort to understand the craft, to dive direction to his work that was in sync with what publishers are seeking he gained a publishing contract. And in fact, he mirrors exactly what led to my first contract.
You say I'm wrong, and by extension so must he be. But has your method worked for you? Has your "soul" writing garnered you a contract? I can pretty much depend on you to show up on any thread I post in, insisting that you know better. But last week I had my fourth novel released from a publishing house. Michael is in the process of release for his first.
You?
The measure of any theory or advice is if it works for the one putting it forward. To say, in effect, "I can't sell my work but you should emulate my method," seems a bit flawed as a way to success.
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Joined: 2/24/2014
Posts: 19
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Hi Jay,
an interesting point has been raised. Why do you only leave overall reviews? Your reviews wouldn't appear so harsh if you used the categories.
You are exactly correct and accurate but appear to deliver it with little tact. By the letter of the rules a one nib is appropriate for many of these stories, but because you don't use the category system, writers don't get to see where they do well and where they are falling over. All they see is a big plate of smackdown. This would be enough to discourage many budding novelists to just give up and listen to rap music.
And nobody wants that.
For myself, I see two distinct aspects in this thread; the technically correct way to write the English language, and the ability to tell a good story.
There are many examples of novels that show more of one than the other being published. Stephen Donaldson and Robert Jordan seem to write some very clean work, but (to me at least) they are dull, boring unengaging stories. Stephen King's ability to string a sentence together must send Jay into a lather, but my God can the man tell a damn good story!
Now I have to say I notice Jay has no work listed here for us to read and get an idea of his idea of a good example, but the writing blog thing is spammed in each review. I had to go to Amazon to find some of his work to get an idea of the grounding. (amazon reviews lol) but there seemed to be a theme that Jay's work is dispassionate but Amazon reviews are not exactly empirical.
Not all of us entertain the dream of becoming a published and world famous author. I have a job and I don't really need another one. I just want to tell a good story. When I started out, I was repeatedly told my work was too much like reading a technical publication. Very dry with little emotion. I'm sure it is because of my industrial trade and technical writing background.
I'll also leave this here; if engineers were good communicators, there would be no technical writers. --edited by JCW Stevenson on 4/6/2014, 4:27 PM--
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Joined: 1/23/2014
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That said, let's try to keep things from specifying specific people or opinions. It should stay an open discussion as opposed to a flame war, in keeping with the BC Community spirit. I don't want to see this thread get deleted because it degrades to that.
Absolutely DC ... The intention wasn't to start a flame war because I was miffed about getting a low score. I took that as a "challenge accepted" moment, looked at what I'm doing (again) in a different light, and asked myself "is that the best you can do? is this doing the story in my head justice, Is this part finished?" – pretty much the same way as a few others took the low score and crappy feedback. (BTW.. Well done Michael ... That's great news on being published)
I guess my point was : OK... I hear what your saying in these reviews. What I'm asking is, is there a better way you can say it. Can you lead by example and inspire, rather than squash enthuasm.
I remember years ago when I was at college studying art and design, there was this old school art teacher who had this amazing ability to shred your work to pieces but make you feel good about it in the process, therefore pushing you to create better and better.
Mr G ... I get your character mate, your a "grumpy writing coach". What you have to say is very relevant, unfortunately you have the people management skills of a paperclip and rub people up the wrong way. But that's ok, because that's the way you work, and deep down I really think you are trying to help. Otherwise why would you do it? If I was in your neck of the woods I'd buy you a coffee and we'd have a dam good argument
JCW .. bingo... spot on... I'm not interested in being proper published author... like you I have a full time job (and a full time family).
Why am I doing this then? Well, I had a weird ass dream one night that scared the shit out of me and immediately wrote it down thinking that there is a pretty good scary story to be told here that I haven't heard before. Maybe I'm doing this as a way to explore the darker sides of my own personality, a mental outlet to deal with the crap life has thrown my way (lets see, suicide, depression, mental health issues, cancer - sometimes it's hard being a rock in the sea of faeces). But I digress.. That should be in the "Why am I doing this" thread probably (or on a red leather couch).
I don't have the time or the finances to take a writing course (see job, family) so I turn to places like this to learn... Thumbs up for BC, cos I have learnded a bucketload!)
So come on folks... share the love. Encourage and inspire and correct those that are trying, even if they are crap. If you squash an ugly but enthused caterpiller how can it ever grow into a beautiful swan that blooms colourful flowers and attracts bees to make sweet honey that you can spread on your toast for breakfast while thinking about your next novel. (now there's a mixed metaphor for you all to think about!)
Group hug folks... group hug
Cheers
Al
--edited by Yellowcake on 4/6/2014, 10:38 PM--
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JCW Stevenson wrote:• an interesting point has been raised. Why do you only leave overall reviews? Your reviews wouldn't appear so harsh if you used the categories.
That's easy. If the work will be rejected before the end of the second paragraph, and if correcting the reason for the rejection involves a minimum of six months of study, rewriting, and practice, isn't that enough to get started on? That's especially true given that most of the rest I might comment on will be fixed by applying the techniques they'll learn in that study and practice.
We're talking about a profession, the kind of thing you spend four years in college learning and then work for a year or more, perfecting your skills, before anyone in the profession looks at you as anything but a beginner. You don't acquire such skills by talking to people who don't know they exist. It takes study, work, and mentoring. Reading the work of someone who hasn't acquired even a basic knowledge of the craft is like walking a hiking trail that's filled with ankle turning rocks, washouts, and snags. Who has time to appreciate the view?
• You are exactly correct and accurate but appear to deliver it with little tact.
So unless one makes nice to the ego of the hopeful writer it's better to pay attention to someone who gives unjustified praise for the sake of praise? I have problems with that. The problem is that the truth comes—that the one getting the critique has to, in effect, start over in their learning of the way to write—it hurts. It destroyed me when I got the result of my first professional critique. It left me in a funk for three days, so I know what's involved. And it's certainly not something anyone wants to hear, so it doesn't matter how gently you deliver the news. But in reality, there is no gentle way to tell someone who has had nothing but praise sandwiches and attaboys, from those who know no more than they do, that they've wasted most of the time they spent writing what they emotionally look at as a favorite child. None.
In reality, for 95% of the critiques I give, the advice is exactly the same: "You need to spend some time learning the basics of craft and the needs of the publishing industry." One single line, states the problem. But no one will accept that without
incontrovertible
evidence. And there is no way to sugar coat it. So I spend a minimum of an hour, trying to make the problem clear, while at the same time making the writer aware that it's not a failing within themselves. That's an hour of time I don't have to give, in an effort to make someone I'll never meet, better understand the task they've set themselves.
But the odds say that someone who's adamantly opposed to learning their craft, who believes that they have some magical inborn talent that makes it unnecessary for them to listen to the advice of publishers and teachers on how to become successfully published, will step in and claim that their way is better. They'll point to long dead writers, as though they actually know them and their background, and say, "He didn't need schooling, so neither do you." That's something the hopeful writer wants to hear. And when they hear it again from someone equally unpublished they will feel that I must be wrong, and were simply being harsh and unfeeling.
Others will chime in and say that the real problem is that I should be making the effort to find a few lines of adequate writing and praise it, so as to soften the blow of learning how they can become published.
• By the letter of the rules a one nib is appropriate for many of these stories, but because you don't use the category system, writers don't get to see where they do well and where they are falling over.
So let's see. Other than a precious few, the people posting work believe that POV refers to which personal pronouns you use. So the only POV is that of the narrator, an external viewpoint, talking about what they visualize in their mind—something don't actually give to the reader. So that eliminates characterization as something to comment on. They list the items in the scene but never make the reader know what, in that scene, matters to the protagonist in the moment they call now, and why. So that eliminates setting. And plot only matters if the writing is readable, so that's out, too.
My point is simple: Until the person knows how to construct a scene and story; until the person knows what a scene is, and what makes it up; until they master POV; until they master a dozen disciplines and areas, there's no category that can be meaningfully talked about.
• For myself, I see two distinct aspects in this thread; the technically correct way to write the English language, and the ability to tell a good story.
The storytelling skills we own when we turn to writing fiction are verbal skills, unusable on the page because they're performance skills and don't work when simply recorded via the printed word. So before you can tell your story you must know how to do that in a fashion that readers will react positively to. That means you have to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the medium, first. The two, story and language, aren't separate, as you imply. What you see as novels being one or the other are a matter of how a given writer uses the tools of the profession. But if you don't own the tools, and aren't even aware they exist, you're doomed before you begin.
• Now I have to say I notice Jay has no work listed here for us to read and get an idea of his idea of a good example, but the writing blog thing is spammed in each review.
The first thing a writer should learn is to do their own research. I have nothing posted here because I write for publication. I have beta readers and published friends who I can turn to. And given that I had my latest novel released by a publisher last week I don't need additional help in making the work publishable.
• I had to go to Amazon to find some of his work to get an idea of the grounding.
And as I say, a writer should do their own research. Had you actually looked, or asked, you would have found fourteen short stories posted as part of my blog for the express purpose of showing what the advice I point to looks like in action. As for promoting my blog, I refer people to the articles on writing. That's not promotion, that's study material. You really should have looked.
And those reviews on Amazon you pointed to? Written by someone, from another writing site, out to trash my reputation because I dared suggest that there's more to the profession than reading fiction and the desire to write. And they did kill sales. But to see what kind of reviews I get when the work isn't trashed by the jealous, look at Samantha's B&N page (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/samantha-and-the-bear-jay-greenstein/1008124151?ean=2940011413933). Thirty reviews and I don't know any of the people who posted. And of course there is the small matter that between last November and today, more than 7000 people have read at least one of my novels. I'm not all that special. Someone with real talent, using the same techniques would probably have done a lot better. Maybe you.
• Not all of us entertain the dream of becoming a published and world famous author. I have a job and I don't really need another one. I just want to tell a good story.
You have the desire. So what? Your writing will be judged in comparison to the professional fiction the reader buys. Doesn't it make sense to use them? But forget that. obviously, my comments aren't directed toward you. If you're not hoping to achieve publication it doesn't matter what I say. But what about the people who do? Must I give praise and ignore problems because you aren't in need of professional level skills?
• When I started out, I was repeatedly told my work was too much like reading a technical publication. Very dry with little emotion.
Of course. It's inherent to the nonfiction writing techniques we use for that and general writing in life and on the job. As a logic designer for forty years I did a lot of tech writing for the equipment I designed (small companies who couldn't afford full time writers). And it was author-centric and fact-based, something you've tried to eliminate by changing to first person and making the author-centric approach more acceptable. Lots of people do that. Half of new writers, in fact. I won't comment on your writing in the forums, but if you take a few pages and change it to third person, as an experiment, I think you'll see the places where that problem persists, making it it read as telling by an external character who's neither in the story or on the scene, which stops the scene clock and destroys momentum. First person is a mode of presenting POV, but it, in and of itself, isn't POV and the pronouns selected don't legitimize telling. The reasons for choosing first person have to do with other issues.
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Joined: 9/17/2013
Posts: 104
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Jay,
In spite of DC’s and Yellowcake’s efforts to redirect the thread, you persist in calling others out even when they agree with you in part, but not agree totally.
I think much of what you say is right. But I’ve known others who behave like you. By not considering that anyone else could be even a little bit right too, they lost their audience and their influence.
I don’t know why people would bother to write negative reviews of your books on Amazon simply because you “dared suggest that there's more to the profession than reading fiction and the desire to write.” There’s likely more to it than that; I’m guessing you disrespected someone and the negative reviews, in your words, “did kill sales.” It is so important to you to be 100 percent right, and so important that no one else can be even partly right, that your own behavior will ultimately result in lower sales of your own books.
This is very interesting. I might have to write a good story about this.
--edited by Perry on 4/7/2014, 9:51 AM--
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Perry wrote:
• In spite of DC’s and Yellowcake’s efforts to redirect the thread, you persist in calling others out
An interesting schoolyard term. I've never heard it applied to disagreeing with something that someone says to and about you.
• I think much of what you say is right.
That's kind of you. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. And given that what I'm saying is what the publishers say, makes sense.
• But I’ve known others who behave like you.
And so the attack begins. Let's get something straight. I don't care who you know, or what you think of me, because I'm not here to impress you, or anyone. I'm here to give help, in the hope that those who actually want to improve their writing with the goal of publication have a counterbalance to the top of the head, "This is what I do and think you should do, too," comments that are so common on sites like this. In fact, because of people who get their knickers in a twist when someone suggests that they might benefit by leaning their craft I don't post in the forums anymore. But this thread was specifically created because and about me. So I'll damn well say what comes to mind in response to what's said to and about me.
• By not considering that anyone else could be even a little bit right too, they lost their audience and their influence unless you have a history of successfully doing it.
Interesting that you accuse me without even hinting at what you think I'm wrong about, which means this isn't discussion, it's you talking about me, and lecturing me on how you want me to think and act, something clearly against the TOS of the site. If you have something to say about writing technique, the profession, a point I'be brought up, or about reviewing techniques, by all means let's hear it. I've not learned a thing from people who agree with me. But as for your opinion of me, or any person on the site, this is not the venue for that.
• I don’t know why people would bother to write negative reviews of your books on Amazon simply because you “dared suggest that there's more to the profession than reading fiction and the desire to write.”
So now you're calling me a liar. You figure that someone claiming to have read two of my novels, who are not a verified customer for either book, who make comments on things not in book, and have no other reviews to their name, are just kindly passers by?
In fact, I know exactly who wrote all of those reviews, and why. And that person was someone who, like you, attacked me, personally, and objected vehemently to my saying that to practice a profession one must first learn it. And if you've spent any time on Authonomy you've met him (actually a her, but that's another story). But this isn't the venue to discuss that, or my writing, either.
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Joined: 11/17/2011
Posts: 1016
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I think that Jay is
right about many things in regard to a certain kind of book (the kind that
makes a bestseller) and a certain kind of reader. I think that his
action/reaction approach, combined with a bit more complexity than I see in
first chapters of five of his stories (the look-inside on Amazon) is a formula
for commercial success. I have not read beyond
the first chapters, but I intend on my next buy trip to Amazon to include one of
his books in my purchase, so as to better judge.
.
I have read all his
reviews, positive and negative. There is a large readership for well-written
fantasy/fluff. It has its place, just not on my bookshelf. I find some of the
negative reviews to be so thoughtful that I am unable to believe that they are
retaliative at their core.
.
This style of
storytelling and this subject matter thrill many. You will find ample proof of this on Bookkus. I don’t think
any of us ought to be offended that our work is not for everyone. Some of the
most popular authors out there I have never read and do not intend to.
.
Ah. While I was writing this, Jay has made a new post. Reviews of books one has not bought? This would indeed indicate to me mean-spirited comments. Jay, that's an interesting piece of information. Is an author able to see who has bought his book on Amazon? Good to know.
--edited by Mimi Speike on 4/7/2014, 9:12 PM--
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Joined: 8/13/2011
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As much as it surprises me, I find that I do have to speak up in Jay's defence here. A while ago I picked up one of Jay's older novels (Wizards, for those who are keeping score) and while I won't pretend to say I enjoyed it, several of the reviews picked up on issues that simply weren't in the novel (at least one suggests that he basically has no concept of grammar or punctuation. I think we all know that's not true).
(As an aside, my new award for 'hilariously surreal' goes to the reviewer who felt the need to point out that the word count per chapter was about right, because that's what's really important)
However, it's worth pointing that none of the reviews on Amazon that I saw were confirmed owners. Invalidating the negative reviews for this sin would also have to invalidate the positive ones.
That said, I think you could do with toning down your rhetoric towards Perry. Comparing him to the people who went out a deliberately trashed your books and apparently attacked you when all he was saying is that there are understandable reasons for their actions (if you don't think I haven't been tempted to do the same, you have a very mistaken sense of my personality) is a stunning display of hyperbolic conflation and very insulting.
Let me ask you this: do you honestly think that arguments like this are are honestly helping you improve the writing quality of the writers on this website?
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Joined: 1/23/2014
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hmm... this thread is all turning a little bit 'orrible. So not what I intended. Methinks I'm gonna exit stage left on this one and get on with 'trying to right betterer than wot i does'.
I take full responsibility to those that feel insulted and apologies.
If you feel that you haven't been insulted yet, let me know and I shall do my best to fit you in.
Cheers
Al
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Joined: 6/7/2013
Posts: 1356
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@Yellowcake: I agree; this thread is becoming too personal and specific for it to be useful to the community at large.
There's a lot of good stuff here, though, and I think we can redirect it back to where you started. If I understand you right, you were suggesting that a review will be even more helpful if the reviewer takes the time to make a suggestion for how the problem in the writing could be fixed or avoided.
I've been lucky to have some really thorough reviews here on Book Country. I'll use Jack Meharry's as a great example. He gives me advice in the "continuity" section that I should trim out extra words in my sentences. I like the way that he states that his preference is for a minimal style (that helps to frame himself as a reader as allows him to avoid a didactic "good writing vs. bad writing" critique) and then he gives me a suggestion of how I could trim by rewriting the exact same sentence of my prose with two less words. I immediately was able to see how unnecessary the 2 words were, and how that minimalistic approach appealed to me as well. The feedback is useful, direct, honest, and clear. Once I had that example to get me going, it's easy for me to go through the rest of my sentences with a sharper eye for what other small words here and there could be cut.
How about this?
I challenge everyone on this thread to go back and find one criticism in a review they've written and see if they could have offered a clearer strategy for fixing the prose. Pick something small, specific, and indicative of an issue affecting the larger piece. Let's compare notes in this thread. Maybe it will inspire us to take, as Yellowcake said, a different approach to reviewing.
--edited by Lucy Silag - Book Country Community Manager on 4/7/2014, 9:53 PM--
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Yellowcake wrote:
So, maybe when giving a "bad" review, how about taking a para or two, and offering an alternative. IE re-write said para or two in a way that works for you. You may get a screw you man, but you may also give the person that the push they need to reach that illusive lightbulb moment?
I have done this in a few of the reviews I've written. I think the whole idea of giving someone constructive criticism is daunting. I read a story, and I know the author poured their heart, soul, mind and time into it. I want to like it. I have read in genres I don't normally read just to see whats out there. I really really want to like it. But sometimes I don't. I read A Casual Vacancy by JK Rowling and wanted to love it. I read Harry Potter and liked it, I wanted this to be good. I had to force myself through the first 1/4 of the book and then I just gave up. I hated it. Is she a bad writer? NO way! Was it a bad book? In my opinion yes. I'd love to rewrite pages and pages of it.
On this site, filled with works in progress and amateur writers; there are so many things that need fixing. I hate to nitpick, but I also don't want to lie. I feel funny writing reviews because I'm just like everyone else. I don't really know what I'm doing. I just know what I like and don't like.
On the flip side some people just can't take criticism. I know a lot of folks who take everything personal because they poured their heart, mind, soul and time into a project they want it to be the next big thing. I think we just need to breath and realize criticism is all about seeing our work from an outside perspective.
I love this idea though because it is both uplifting and encouraging while also showing that our work does need to be worked on.
Thank Yellowcake!
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Joined: 4/2/2014
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I've read a lot of the reviews Jay gives and I have read a lot of the posts he does in the threads here. I've also read his blog. I honestly hope he reads my book and writes a scathing review. He truly gives good advice. But I also agree with Mr. Timothy Maguire on several points he has made in this thread.
Here is the most important thing to remember: This is a site for amateurs! None of us are published yet. We are all just trying to make the best books we can. Jay's advice is good, but it is somewhat narrow sighted. His advice is to just learn the craft and be better. Nothing about how to improve the book. His idea is that unless you meet what a publisher wants than you shouldn't even be writing. But this site is for practicing and getting better. As we put up our drafts we ask for input. If the advice is learn more then we can't really learn more. If, however, as Mr. Cake (first name Yellow?) has said we offer suggestions and maybe even some rewrites, we can actually learn!
Example: Person X puts up a manuscript. Jay reviews it and says "I'm not attacking you personally or your potential, you just need to read these books and become a better writer or you'll never be published." He also offers some advice about POV and maybe a something else.
EVERYTHING Jay says is 100% true for Person X! Now I review the book. I go through and offer a few suggestions, say that they are getting certain things right and say I absolutely hate the opening line. I am also giving sound advice. But whose advice is more practical for that particular draft? Sure Jay's is true and maybe more helpful in the long run. But I am trying to offer insight into what in their story is bad and what is good. I often say something like this "this is a problem throughout the story so I've only highlighted it once", now it is up to the author to find areas like the one's I've highlighted.
I'm sure I've summoned the wrath of Jay now! I hope not though. I am glad to have a published author with editor friends reviewing books here. I think he can be an asset. But I think that many others give great advice and tips as well.
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Mimi Speike wrote: • I think that Jay is
right about many things in regard to a certain kind of book (the kind that
makes a bestseller) and a certain kind of reader.
Everyone keeps talking about what "Jay says," as if these are my views on writing. But virtually everything I say are things you would learn were you to take a university degree in writing fiction. There's nothing I say that I can't back up with page and chapter number.
But no one ever disagrees with a specific point, it's just generalities, like "a certain kind of..." or, "You don't need to..." which is in the end a rationalization because what they're really saying is that "What the teachers and publishers say doesn't apply to me." If only.
• I think that his
action/reaction approach, combined with a bit more complexity than I see in
first chapters of five of his stories (the look-inside on Amazon) is a formula
for commercial success.
The alternate is commercial failure. And no publisher is going to offer a contract for that. The simple fact is that a publisher must invest thousands of dollars in you, in the form of editing, artwork, and selling the bookstores on carrying your book. Unless they sell enough books to pay for all that, the book is a failure. And there is no publisher looking for work that won't sell. So don't delude yourself into thinking that a work is somehow better because few people are looking to buy it.
• I have not read beyond
the first chapters, but I intend on my next buy trip to Amazon to include one of
his books in my purchase, so as to better judge.
Water Dance is free. But my latest from Double Dragon, As Falls an Angel, is one I'm especially proud of.
.
• This style of
storytelling and this subject matter thrill many. You will find ample proof of this on Bookkus. I don’t think
any of us ought to be offended that our work is not for everyone.
You miss the single basic point, which is that you're really talking about style—the way a given writer used the tools. But unless you have and understand the usage of the tools you're doomed to failure. It took twelve years of your life to learn the basic skills of writing taught in the public education system. Twelve years of writing, learning, mentoring, and grading to get it right. But those skills are nonfiction skills, designed to make the average adult ready to learn a trade or profession. They're the skills used to write reports, essays, and letters. They are not the skills of the playwright or the screenwriter. Tech writing has its unique elements of craft, as does journalistic writing. Why would anyone believe that fiction for the printed word, uniquely, has no skills you can't pick up by reading?
Not one person in ten, when asked what's unique about the first paragraph of every chapter, in half the books in their library, knows the answer. Can anyone reasonably believe that this same person, who hasn't noticed something they see constantly, needs no special education to write compelling fiction? Logic would say no, but again and again I read posts in which people insist that learning craft will somehow stunt their creativity, that the craft taught in the universities only applies to people who are somehow of lesser ability.
Writing for publication is a difficult and unforgiving field, with fierce competition. Your submission lies on the desk with a thousand others, and only one will be chosen. Many of the other writers have spent a decade honing their skills. Many have attended workshops and retreats. To believe that someone with a high school education, and perhaps an undergrad CW course can be competitive in that environment is unrealistic. Why? As Mark Twain put it, “It
ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for
sure that just ain’t so.”
.
• Ah. While I was writing this, Jay has made a new post. Reviews of books one has not bought? This would indeed indicate to me mean-spirited comments. Jay, that's an interesting piece of information. Is an author able to see who has bought his book on Amazon? Good to know.
At the top of every review you should see the words, "Amazon Verified Purchase." Without that it's probably one of the the author's relatives, or someone with an ax to grind.
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Jonathan L wrote:• Here is the most important thing to remember: This is a site for amateurs! None of us are published yet. We are all just trying to make the best books we can. Jay's advice is good, but it is somewhat narrow sighted.
Again the assumption that I'm giving my personal opinion. I'm not. I'm telling you what you can hear from any publisher, teacher, or successful author. Take a look at this excerpt of DMYM: http://www.bellarosabooks.com/PDF/DMYM_Excerpt.pdf
• His advice is to just learn the craft and be better.
No, my advice is that you can't write if you haven't a clue as to the structure of a novel or even a scene—all things we learn nothing about in our schooling. You can't provide a real POV if you think it's related to which personal pronouns you use. You can't write a successful novel with nothing more than high school writing skills. You can't use the storytelling skills you already possess because they're performance skills that don't translate to a medium that reproduces neither sound nor sight.
• Nothing about how to improve the book. His idea is that unless you meet what a publisher wants than you shouldn't even be writing.
The publisher is your customer. In fact, your only customer, because readers are their customer. And anyone who doesn't take the time to learn what the customer needs before they start building the product is a fool.
• But this site is for practicing and getting better.
Practicing what? Assume we're talking about any profession other than writing fiction for the printed word. Name one for which the hopeful beginner doesn't have to learn the expected skills of the profession before they can practice them.
• As we put up our drafts we ask for input. If the advice is learn more then we can't really learn more.
Nonsense. The advice is to learn the basics. And the things I talk about are Writing 101 concepts—as a publisher views them. And since you're talking about me, my advice always includes a specific recommendation as to where and how that can be done. People often complain that I write a critique and only talk about a few paragraphs. But if you can't write a first page that will hook a reader and make them want to turn to the next page, you're doing some really basic things wrong. If I can write a thousand words on what's wrong on the first page, and back that up with what the publishers and teachers say, how much more do you need? Unless the reader is made to want to turn to that next page—on every single page—you wasted the time to write the rest.
It would seem obvious that the very first thing to do is learn what it is you're trying to do.
•If, however, as Mr. Cake (first name Yellow?) has said we offer suggestions and maybe even some rewrites, we can actually learn!
If you could learn how to write by means of a few suggestions from people who cannot sell their own writing we would all be happily published. You're looking for a shortcut. There are none. You didn't learn to write in first grade that way and you can't learn it for fiction. And the fact that we don't see people dropping in her daily to thank everyone for the help in getting a publishing contract you can see how effective the technique you're suggesting is. Somehow, no one ever seems to notice that, though.
• EVERYTHING Jay says is 100% true for Person X! Now I review the book. I go through and offer a few suggestions, say that they are getting certain things right and say I absolutely hate the opening line. I am also giving sound advice.
You're giving sound advice? Sincere I'll buy. Honest might apply. But you know nothing about the standards a publisher applies. You're a reader who decided to become a writer, as we all are at one point. As such, will you even look for a scene goal when you're critiquing? No. Will you notice if the writer handles the three questions a reader wants answered quickly if you don't know what they are? Of course not.
“Readers don’t
notice point-of-view errors. They simply sense that the writing is bad.”
~ Sol Stein
• But whose advice is more practical for that particular draft?
You make the mistake of thinking in terms of, "Do this, or don't do that." We're talking about a profession. Like any other it's filled with specialized knowledge, tricks-of-the-trade, and things that have to be taken on faith until the student learns enough of the necessary skills to understand it.
People spend a good deal of money and four years at the university learning to write fiction professionally. Do you really believe that someone who says, "I think I'll write a novel," needs none of that professional knowledge? Some people believe that. We have a name for them: unpublished.
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Joined: 11/17/2011
Posts: 1016
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Hi Jay,
I will download Water Dance and still buy another of your books.
.
I had quite a bit of criticism on Sly two years ago. I have spent six months addressing some of those criticisms, finessing some, and ignoring others. I have just handed it off to a professional editor. When I get her report, in about a month, I will tell everyone if she has torn me apart for the same issues. I'll put the latest version up, and, possibly, listen better to the advice.
--edited by Mimi Speike on 4/8/2014, 2:58 AM--
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Joined: 11/11/2013
Posts: 43
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Two critique examples comes to mind.
The first is one I gave on some head-jumping that didn't work very well. In the span of a single paragraph, the POV shifted from person x to person y and back again, and this happened in a few places throughout the story. I'm not saying you can never switch POV, just that it didn't work well in this example. I didn't offer a rewrite of the sentences in question, just flagged it and moved on. Perhaps I could have offered more detail, but I don't think it was necessary. I think there are plenty of cases where someone knows the rules of the craft, but still makes mistakes putting those rules into practice and that's where having a second (or third or fourth) set of eyes is good and helps us keep on track, no matter what point we're in on the writer journey. I didn't assume that the writer had no clue about POV, I just assumed that in this particular instance, she didn't get the technique quite right.
The second example I have is a critique I received on The Outlands. The reviewer identified a fairly large chunk of backstory that I had in the middle of the third chapter. She indicated that this is where she lost interest in the story, which was extremely helpful feedback and applied not only to the chapter in question but to the rest of the manuscript. Doling out backstory, especially when you're world-building, is a talent and one that I am still developing. The reviewer didn't have to be an expert in backstory to give me helpful advice, she just needed to be a conscientious reader who realized "hey, I was interested in this story right up until X point, and then I got bored by two pages of exposition." Once again, after six months of dreaming up this world, two months of writing it, and four months of editing it, I lost sight of how interested the reader was going to be in how thoroughly I'd devised my apocalyptic scenario
Of course I am both new to fiction writing and unpublished, and so are many other reviewers on this site. That doesn't mean we have nothing to offer in a critique. I see learning about writing fiction as a progression. You learn the rules (from books, from articles, from workshops, what have you), then you practice putting them into action both by recognizing them in other works you're reading for pleasure or critiquing, and then finally by putting them into practice in your own writing. It's not like you can read a book about POV and nail it on the first story you write thereafter. You have to play around with your new tools, and I do believe that reading is a huge part of that process. When you're finally ready to try these new skills out in your own writing, sometimes you'll get it right, sometimes you won't. And that's where reader feedback is critical.
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Joined: 9/17/2013
Posts: 104
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Jay,
I didn't attack you in my post. It's time to lighten up.
What I did write is that I agree with much of what you say. I do have some craft books, and I've tried to read them. I may have even learned some things from them.
I also wrote how your online relationships elsewhere resulted in bad reviews of your work, which "did kill sales." This was not an attack. It was a restatement of something you put in your own posts.
Maybe we live in different worlds, and that explains why the publisher of my short story collections and the editors and publishers of the periodicals that carry my short stories and creative non-fiction have never acted in the ways you describe.
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Joined: 9/17/2013
Posts: 104
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A critique that helped me:
I read a short story for a regional competition. It was about a bar fight that ended in a killing. The narrator was a bar patron who described the action from his vantage point at a table in the bar. I did not expect to win the competition and I didn't. While the story was well received, the subject matter was too far from the comfort level of this audience.
I later posted the story on another site and it got good reviews. Then someone suggested a rewrite narrated by the killer himself. This presented a new set of possibilities. I posted the rewrite alongside the original, and the second version got better reviews.
Ratings aside, I learned from writing the same story with narrators with different experiences and different motivations.
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Julie Artz wrote:• I didn't assume that the writer had no clue about POV, I just assumed that in this particular instance, she didn't get the technique quite right.
But you're assuming I'm assuming. Specifically, I said that if you believe that POV refers to which personal pronouns you use, you can't handle POV properly. And on looking at a given section of writing it's easy to tell if the writer understands—if you do. Ask ten hopeful writers, chosen at random, to tell you what POV is, they'll begin talking about first person vs third, close vs distant. But those are only the modes of presenting POV. Point of view, itself, a very different thing. And if you're not certain of what I mean, you might want to look at this: http://jaygreenstein.wordpress.com/2011/09/22/the-grumpy-writing-coach-8/
• The second example I have is a critique I received on The Outlands. The reviewer identified a fairly large chunk of backstory that I had in the middle of the third chapter. She indicated that this is where she lost interest in the story, which was extremely helpful feedback and applied not only to the chapter in question but to the rest of the manuscript.
But had you read any decent book on writing before you wrote that story, or at least released it for comment, you wouldn't have included any info-dumps. In fact, go back to POV. If you have a good understanding of it and what it does for you, the reason backstory, presented as an info-dump doesn't work would be obvious. And remember, if a suggestion seems to make sense it could be because it's accurate. But it could also seem to make sense only because you, like the one giving the advice, are missing critical professional information. And if the one getting the advice is still learning the profession they have no way to judge if the publisher they hope to submit to agrees with that advice. As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
• The reviewer didn't have to be an expert in backstory to give me helpful advice, she just needed to be a conscientious reader who realized "hey, I was interested in this story right up until X point, and then I got bored by two pages of exposition."
In that case particular you're right, but I see bad advice being given all the time, by sincere and careful people who honestly believe they know what they're talking about. And too often they believe that because they read it in a forum like this, as advice given by someone who cannot sell their own work. And then that advice was reinforced by hearing it from someone else, equally unsuccessful, who heard it from another "pre-published" writer. If you've never played the game whispering down the lane look it up, because you're playing it now.
The only one who can accurately tell you what publishers react well to are publishers and successful writers. All else is speculation and guesswork.
• Of course I am both new to fiction writing and unpublished, and so are many other reviewers on this site. That doesn't mean we have nothing to offer in a critique.
That's true. All readers can be helpful. But they can't teach you how to write because they don't know how, themselves. And their advice is useful in a pass/fail sense because of that. As Sol Stein said, “Readers don’t
notice point-of-view errors. They simply sense that the writing is bad.” And worse than that, hopeful writers are even worse because they'll try to tell you how the area being commented on should have been written, but they're really saying, "You need to stop writing like you and write more like me." Now, if they write with more skill that's okay, if a bit incomplete. If they don't...
• I see learning about writing fiction as a progression. You learn the rules (from books, from articles, from workshops, what have you), then you practice putting them into action both by recognizing them in other works you're reading for pleasure or critiquing, and then finally by putting them into practice in your own writing. It's not like you can read a book about POV and nail it on the first story you write thereafter.
Other than replacing "rules" with "tools" I agree. The average new writer writes, polishes, and puts aside half a million to a million words before they get a contract.
• You have to play around with your new tools, and I do believe that reading is a huge part of that process.
In that case, a challenge. I deconstructed Samantha and the Bear (http://jaygreenstein.wordpress.com/2011/07/10/grumpy-writing-coach-7/) in order to show the kind of thinking that goes into constructing a scene. So try this: Read the the section as a story, no more, ignoring the numbers within the narrative. Then go back and look at a numbered section. See if you can guess why I included it, and why I phrased it in that way, as against some other presentation. If you can see the purpose for a writer doing one thing as against the other, by reading their work, what you come up will match what I say for that numbered point. And it doesn't matter if the writing is good or bad. If you can tell, you'll read my mind on that point. If not, maybe the, "I can learn to write by reading fiction" method isn't quite as effective as you hope.
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Joined: 2/24/2014
Posts: 19
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Just a quick question Jay,
have you worked as a publishing agent or publisher's editor yourself? Have you had your work published by a major publishing house that has put hard copies on shelves? I have only seen your stuff on Amazon and Double Dragon (an ebook outfit).
As to the challenge put down by Lucy Silag I will accept, once I'm home and have the time to dedicate a decent reply!
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Joined: 11/11/2013
Posts: 43
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Jay Greenstein wrote: "I can learn to write by reading fiction" method isn't quite as effective as you hope.
I didn't suggest that it's possible to learn to write just by reading fiction, only that it's an important part of the process. And I stand by that. I doubt anyone has ever become a successful writer without first becoming a careful reader.
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Joined: 6/7/2013
Posts: 1356
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Hi Julie--I absolutely agree with you that reading is an enormous part of improving your writing.
A lot of times reading is also what brings me back to my writing. Just reading something I really like makes me itchy to write something. A lot of times, that motivates me much more than reading theory and writing guides (though I like that stuff too).
I read Stephen King's ON WRITING and I thought that was such a good mix--a fantastic memoir narrative with such great, simple writing advice mixed in.
The best thing about that book was that he never bullies the reader into thinking that they better take his advice. He shares the things he's learned over time in a friendly, humble way. He encourages them to keep trying and to keep reading.
Have you read that book? Even if you're not a Stephen King reader (I wasn't myself until I read this book), I think you will like it. His is a wonderful, down-to-earth approach to thinking about learning the craft of writing.
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Joined: 11/11/2013
Posts: 43
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I loved On Writing! I'm not a huge King fan either, but that book is the exception--one of my all-time favorites. I bought it when it first came out and it really started me down the path toward writing creatively (at the time, I was fresh out of graduate school and headed toward a career in communication management, so it was an odd time to change gears. It took me more than a decade to actually make the shift!).
On the flip side, one of my favorite authors, Amy Tan, also wrote a book about writing called The Opposite of Fate. I couldn't get through it, which really surprised me. The Kitchen God's Wife and the Bonesetter's Daughter were, in my opinion, sublime. So I expected the same from The Opposite of Fate.
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