I was working on a review. Having had a cordial back and forth with the author for a few weeks, but dragging my feet on the read, for various reasons, I sent a private message: Review up shortly. I made a few preliminary remarks. The reply I got was, "Do not continue. Please, dispense with your hit-piece." Was this said with jocularity? I have no idea.

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I will quote from my private message, which was, I feel, inoffensive.

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“It's well written, but is more insubstantial logistics and less interior reactions than I would like to see. I like to get into heads.

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I need either to get in close with the physicality, the blood and guts struggle to survive, more intense action sequences along with interior monologues that situate me more firmly in both history and landscape, or I need to know enough about the personalities to make me care about them.

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I take it for granted that you have a good tale here, and I like your impulse, but for me, you have failed to bring these people to life.”

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I have all the good will in the world for the piece, the thrust of my own writing is similar. But, as has been said again and again here, a reader has to have a reason, from the first paragraph, until the plot glues us to the page, to read on. For me, that would be either an outstanding prose style or a depth of characterization. Personal details. Reactions and thoughts, and the more the better. A wider open window into the soul.

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Epic tales may well rely on other methods to hook a reader that I may not appreciate. I am certainly a literary fiction lover, and what I adore drives many others nuts.

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If the author wants input - why else be on here? – let him advertise the book name below, and I am sure he will get all the reviews anyone could want. And I am very interested in knowing if I’m way off in my opinion.

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By the way, sir, if you can figure out how to retrieve my original feedback of two years ago (I still don’t have this new format in hand) you will find that I got some really awful reviews. And I am glad that my thinking was so thoroughly challenged. 

--edited by Mimi Speike on 5/18/2014, 1:55 PM--

Hey Mimi. S'orrible when someone takes offence to something you say innit. Don't worry about it, I'm sure we've all been there, and if we haven't, we will be one day.

I guess all I can add, especially to the unknown writer that is. When you have been kicked in the plums as many times as I have over the years, across various creative ideas I hasten to add (written, visual, musically, dramatic and so on), you become immune to the pain and take each kick for what it is.  If your feeling shitty about it, look back at some of the goals you have scored, reflect in that glory for a little while. Validate to yourself the fact that yes, even you occasionally have a good idea and you have the skills to pull it off and that it isn't worth getting the shits over when it doesn't quite happen. 

TO ALL of us here... Which one of these types are you? If i missed any, add them here.

The overly protective:

Gets angry... Shouts screw you, your wrong, I'm right, how dare you insult my creative integrity like this, I'm going back to my trailer - then storms out the room, making sure that every door get slammed and a few things gets smashed while they are at it. 

The sensitive:

Burst into tears, whinges, moans and cries, Grabs a tub of chocolate ice cream and sobs into it while eating the whole bloody lot, watching of Bridget Jones Dairy. Maybe buys a cat.

The defeatist:

Looks at the various works in progress they have, decides that they are all shite and rips them up using the broken shards of their imagination to mop up the tears. Gives up, never to do anything remotely creative ever again, may be become an accountant or a real estate agent.

The realistic: 

Get a little upset. Sulks for a while even, but think hey maybe they have a point. Realises that 2 things have just happened, either they, as a creative failed to communicate the idea in a way that gave it the chance to shine. Or that said person/critic simply didn't like the idea and thats ok, cos not everybody likes everything. Gets over it and keep going hopefully delivering a better product for the experience they just had.

Me... I think I have a little of each in me... 

If you took offence to what was said in a review, have a think about the reasons behind it, if its simply a case of person X didn't like it, didn't get it, thats OK. I personally think that Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast is wonderful, my wife hates it. However she loves Twighlight (yeah I know... crazy huh! and I still married her!!!). 

Anyway, just my 2 bobs worth - i'll shut up now... Please send any insults to idontcare@bringiton.com

Cheers

Al

You should see the replies I get.  

Lots of hopeful writers haven't yet learned to divorce ego from writing, and you have, in effect, found fault with their favorite child, so they react with anger. They look at any criticism as a personal attack. And if they've had praise from people who are in effect saying, "You write just like I do...good work," the reaction will be magnified.

Just bear in mind that you're leading the horse to water. Drinking is up to the horse.

Mimi,

Jay has it right, I think. I wouldn't worry about it too much, if the author doesn't want your help, or isn't in a place to accept or understand it.

 I know a novelist who put her writing career on hold for 30 years when she couldn't take honest criticism from the publisher who proposed changes in her first novel.

I am concerned that I criticize from a perspective of what delights me, and I am a lover of intimate style, first and foremost. Jay, you are absolutely right when you say that a story must grip from the first paragraph. I have tightened up on my former tendency to plow on regardless. Now I rather ask, if I had picked this up in a bookstore, would I still be reading? Of course I read on, but that is my first point to make in my comments.

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I struggle with plot-driven works, I love the personal. And my taste is surely out of sync with the mainstream, so I try to tread lightly. I have not named names, I do not want to embarrass. The author will come to his senses and out himself, and when he does, I will be happy to finish the read and the review. 

I can only think that the author expected my review to be a tit for tat. He said some nice things about my piece. I now question his sincerity. 

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We had been connected, but no longer are. This is bizarre.

Hi Mimi--I'm sorry you had this uncomfortable experience. It's rare on Book Country for something like this to happen.

If you want me to get involved, please just send me an email: Lucy@BookCountry.com. I'm happy to follow up about this and any other member issues privately.

Thanks for bringing this to the attention of the community.

Lucy

Critiquing/beta-reading can be difficult even when you know someone and know they're a pretty good writer already.  There are so many factors at work between the author and beta, and if they don't know each other, it can make it difficult.  Of course, if we're wanting to get published, that's what we're going for -- people who don't know us to actually read our work and keep doing so all the way through.  So not knowing someone really is no excuse to balk on either end of the equation.

Sorry you are having to deal with this, Mimi...particularly the disconnecting.  As Al points out, there are a number of different impulses people can have to criticism, and unfortunately most people don't know what to do with those impulses when they arise and tend to choose the destructive path rather than the alchemically transmutational.

~Kimberly

I'm sorry this happened to you, Mimi. It's tough when you spend a lot of time trying to provide a helpful review only to have someone misunderstand/not appreciate it.

I'd be interested to hear what you guys do when someone responds poorly to your review in a critique environment (Book Country or elsewhere). For example, if you give a low-nibs review, and the person doesn't respond in any way (or worse, pulls the work down entirely). Do you send a PM to the person and try to clear the air? Drop it forever? Wait for the dust to settle, then extend an olive branch? 

Lucy, what would you advise?

You can't let it bother you. Just as you have the right to find problems the one you critique has the right to ignore what you say.

I can tell you from experience, that a critique can be devastating. I sent off my first for pay critique certain that I would get lots of little corrections, but allover, would be complimented on what a great story it was. And that's pretty much true for people who post for review, too.

When that envelope came home, I opened it and found a literal sea of blue ink. It was lapping between the lines, running in the margins, and dribbling off the page. I don't think anything that had happened to me in my life up to that point, came close to the emotional crash that critique brought. I was literally unable to function for three days. Then, I looked again, to actually read what was said, and went into a rage over the fact that the editor was too stupid to understand the obvious. And had that been an online transaction I might have reacted as did the one who got Mimi's critique.

The next day I decided to try to understand what, about the prose, might have made the editor react so badly, and miss so much. That was the day I took the first steps toward learning how to write. My POV hopped around like a jackrabbit. My characters were smart when smart was needed and dumb when the plot needed that. They postured, and I was thinking cinematically. In other words, I was the typical new writer.

I was lucky. Had I gotten that critique in a website where lots of people who knew no more than me were praising my work I could well have reacted with an outburst. And a letter from the one who gave the critique wouldn't have been read with an open mind.

The way I look at it is that you gave it your best shot. You gave time you didn't have to give, to someone you don't know, to help them become a better writer. If they don't get it, maybe after a few days they will. And even if they never do, maybe someone else, on reading your comments, will see the same problem in their own work and be helped.

That works, too.

Here's what I wonder about: there are genres and writing styles that, even well written, do not suck me into the story. I read them here, as part of a commitment to Book Country, but I would otherwise pass them by. Is this fair, to review with personal preferences solidly in place? 

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The book I was reviewing was well written, and I am a fan of the method of taking an iconic tale and exploring it. But I wanted to know not only what the actors were saying, but what they were thinking. In depth. And I wasn't getting that. I suppose that I expected a more personal telling, for that is the way I would have written it. Maybe that was coming, I'll never know.

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How do we handle stylistic likes and dislikes? After that reaction, I would have continued the read to the end, to see if my opinion could be turned around. But the book has been taken down. 

--edited by Mimi Speike on 5/27/2014, 11:27 AM--

We all have our preferences when it comes to genres and styles, and there's no way any book will appeal to everyone.  Personally, I don't like books that feel rushed, give me inadequate context, or - like you - don't let me into the main characters' heads.  Also, I'm not a fan of certain genres in general.  Also, there's a lot of things I do enjoy in books that other people don't.

That being said, I think reviewers and critique partners have an obligation to set those biases aside to some degree when reading someone else's work when it's merely a case of style clash.  If the style is problematic - like someone's style is to overly rush the pacing, or to drone on for God knows how long to the point where the book slows to a crawl - that's a valid criticism.  I happen to like dialogue and banter, and all my WIPs are pretty heavy on dialogue and characters playing off each other, but I don't mind books with very little dialogue in them and wouldn't dock them for that.  (Isabel Allende's Zorro is like this - lots of story and internal contemplation, but not a lot in the way of actual dialogue.) 

- - - - - - -

 What you commented on wasn't a style issue, it was structural. If you weren't aware of what was motivating the character, in real time, the POV was weak, and that's a valid comment no matter the genre.

I guess everyone can tell, this is really bothering me.

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And anyone who reads my work knows that I take what did they say vs. what did they think to an extreme. I'm wondering, always, yeah, what did they really think? ... what did they used to think? ... why did they change their mind? ... what happened in their childhood to make them the nut cake they are? ... and so on. And, frankly, that's the story for me, getting inside the skin. Nuts and bolts plot, actual events, is icing on the cake. I'm in love with the underlying psychology.

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I'll rethink my stance in terms of the work of others. I do manage to do this most times. But I could see myself writing that piece, I do the same thing, reimagining a classic theme. So I quickly got too attached to it, and bemoaned missed opportunities to open the characters up.

--edited by Mimi Speike on 5/28/2014, 11:40 AM--

@Julie, hard question!

The most important thing is that members feel comfortable and safe while using the site. As long as everyone respects the Community Guidelines, it shouldn't be too difficult for members to work together, no matter how many nibs are given. Review in the spirit of helping and you will likely avoid problems. Similarly, take that to heart when you are reading reviews of your work. Try to receive feedback as it's meant to be offered on Book Country: suggestions for revision from a very diverse community. We are all coming from a different writing background, and we're all trying our best to make sense of what good writing is. Rules about writing always fall apart because writing is art, not science. If you respond to the writing you read on Book Country as a reader rather than an expert, telling the writer when they lost your interest or what felt unclear to you, rather than saying something is "wrong" or "bad," you will also likely avoid a lot of hurt feelings and subsequent drama.

It needs to be a conversation. If the conversation turns into a lecture, an argument, or something that feels uncomfortable or inappropriate, you should let me know.

We had a great blog post a while back about how to ask for the feedback that you need. This can be helpful to reference when you are updating your "Author's Note." Depending on what stage you are at in the process, different types of feedback will be more helpful than others. Learning how to clarify what you need will hopefully help reviewers give you the kind of feedback that will help you get to the next stage in the writing process.

But it's also good to remember that readers will often give you feedback you totally were not expecting. Even if your reviewer gives you feedback that doesn't speak to what you need at this moment, it's stuff you can file away. The important thing is to file it, and move on toward fulfilling your own writing goals.

These are the best tips I can think of at the moment. What do others think?

I welcome all criticism, presented in a non-threatening manner of course. And regardless of the reviewer's qualifications (i.e. MFA) I regard their comments as valid because they were a reader. And readers are the people who will eventually (and hopefully) buy my own book.

 I always mention my role as "just a reader" when I review a book. I offer my opinion, perhaps some suggestions, and then it is up to the author to decide if they want to use my comments or ignore them. That said, I know from my own experience the longer I am in this writing-business, the more open I am to criticism. In Mimi's case, being "dispatched" by the author may just be a case of the author not being ready to move ahead. All we can do is offer our thoughts.

Some people are blunt in their critiques. Having been in the business for a while, I tend to come across as thoroughly blunt but it is only because I've seen, written, read, and editing too much junk. I ghostwrite so have to adhere to client's guidelines no matter what my personal opinion may be--same for editing. I've been known to blast someone but actually didn't mean to come across in attack mode. The industry is top-heavy with authors tearing each other up, street teams that support authors stepping up to blast back (facebook is rampant with such), and readers/writers trying to mentor and guide in the midst of this 'war zone'.

Try not to take it personally. I write and edit erotica but also ghostwrite. Because of this, I rush through my own writing--how do I explain to readers that I am one person trying to give my own creativity an outlet amongst the madness? It's impossible. Even if I tried, many don't read the short explanation that a work in progress is just that. They launch into reading, revel from the power of trying to guide another, and sometimes portray their thoughts in a destructive verses constructive manner. Words on paper lack the body language that face-to-face communication offers. Eyes convey understanding in a two-way conversation, bodily stance implies meaning, and even the yearning to insert a sentence here and there can be construed to each party as a connection. We don't enjoy that level of communication on these critiques. Words with a white background can be cold and harsh, rushed and harmful, but know that the reader/reviewer's intent (for the most part) is to aid the writer in growth. Take what you can from it. As writers, we have to learn who is tearing us down and who is willing to uphold us.

I haven't read your writing but I can relate. Why? Because the publishing world is in flux at the moment. Whatever you may call it--self-publishing, independent authors, represented authors by a publisher, or those connected with the big boys--we're all in the same ocean. Please know that there are those amongst you that recognize the authors smacking each other with the oars simply to get ahead. Some use tactics that are simply childish, behavior that belongs on the schoolgrounds, and cliques that they use to their own benefit (boosting ego, prompting sales...but they call it marketing). Quality work will shine through. This is why we check each other on sites such as this.

This may sound harsh but, when launching onto social networking platforms (twitter, facebook, etc.), there will be a mass hurricane of people which either like your work or are hell-bent on ripping you apart for their own agenda. Take it from a published author and ghostwriter, you have to roll with the raft, dodge the oars aimed at you, and support the ones that are rowing along with you. I row relentlessly (meaning that I will never stop writing until my creativity screams enough) and I will aid whoever is in my boat along with me. If it means that I have to check them on how to place oar to ocean, I will try to be tactful. When I'm not, I strive to learn from them on how to grow as a critiquer, reviewer, reader, author, editor, and hope to learn anything outside my field (formatting, cover art, style, flow, and so much more). Good luck to you.

Lucy,

Re: "It needs to be a conversation. If the conversation turns into a lecture, an argument, or something that feels uncomfortable or inappropriate . . ."

Exactly. 

I like what Mickey Spillane had to say about critics, and about first pages of a book.

“I pay no attention to those jerks who think they’re critics,” he said. “How many of them have sold 200 million books?"

In regards first pages, he said, "The first chapter sells the book. The last chapter sells the next one."

I welcome reviews. Good or bad or a slam that tells me they don't think I can write my name in the dirt with a stick. I take them as one person's assessment. I'll read all reviews, look at suggestions if there are any and try to fix the problems.

If one appears relative to my incapability of writing my name in the dirt, I'll reply thanking the person and advising them that there are times when, after reading my previous day's work, I would tend to agree with them.

--edited by ChuckB on 8/11/2014, 11:54 PM--