|
|
Joined: 6/28/2011
Posts: 188
|
I've been rereading the Lord of the Rings in fits and starts on my lunch hour for what's probably been two years or more now. Tolkien's prose has such weightiness to it, and the books are so sedate in most of their pacing, that I'm not often motivated to devour chapter after chapter every day of the week. I probably spend about half my lunch hour reading, three or four days a week.
It's been a good way to re-experience the series. I'm familiar enough with it and the basic story is simple enough that even prolonged gaps in my reading don't throw me into confusion. (I think I put down the Two Towers for six or eight months at one point.) And because I'm taking such a long time to read it, there have been literally dozens of times that the series has come up in pop culture references, conversations, or forum threads and given me the opportunity to think, "Oh, yes, I'm reading that right now."
I re-watched the movie trilogy a couple of months back, and it's been fascinating observing the similarities and differences between the two presentations of the story. I'm largely a curmudgeon about the films; I think Peter Jackson missed or cheapened a great deal of the heart of the books, while indulging far too much in slow motion and weepy music. But I've been surprised several times at some of the dialogue he chose to lift pretty faithfully from the books.
At any rate, it's a trilogy whose characters take a very long road to get where they're going, and the process of reading it at a very long stretch has seemed very fitting.
|
|
Joined: 4/27/2011
Posts: 608
|
You think LOTR is a trilogy "whose characters take a very long road to get where they're going"; pity poor Henry Victor Dyson (original member of the Inklings) who had to suffer these Tolkien tales as they were being written! (I love Tolkien and his "singing prose" masterpiece but thinking of Dyson's outburst always makes me chuckle . . .)
......................................................
From WIKI: Henry Victor Dyson Dyson (1896–1975), generally known as Hugo Dyson and who signed his writings H. V. D. Dyson, was an English academic and a member of the Inklings literary group. He was a committed Christian, and together with J.R.R. Tolkien, he helped persuade C.S. Lewis to convert to Christianity.[citation needed]
Dyson taught English at the University of Reading from 1924 until obtaining a fellowship with Merton College, Oxford in 1945. He retired in 1963 but returned as emeritus fellow in 1969, teaching the newly-introduced "modern" literature paper. His tutorials were memorable because many of the writers discussed had been personal friends of his.
Dyson was not a prolific writer, but the good quality and voluminous quantity of his lectures and general conversation had quite an effect on people. He much preferred talk at Inklings meetings to readings and is recorded by fellow Inkling Christopher Tolkien as "lying on the couch, and lolling and shouting and saying, 'Oh fuck, not another elf!'[a]" during The Lord of the Rings.[2] Dyson was not alone in his distaste for Tolkien's stories, and eventually Tolkien quit reading from them to the group altogether. Actually, it seems from the letters of CS Lewis that Dyson was considered the most fun-loving of the Inklings, and Warnie Lewis liked him best of all[citation needed].
|
|
Joined: 8/13/2011
Posts: 272
|
Cark, I think 'oh, BLEEP, not another elf' may have just become my new watch word.
|
|
Joined: 8/21/2011
Posts: 394
|
I had first read LOTR when I was in high school; reread it some years later (probably while in graduate school). Then, when the movies came out and I found myself thinking, "wait, where'd that bit come from?", I read them again - including ALL of the appendices. In so many ways, I think the movies present a tighter story - and they fill out some of the story lines by taking material from the appendices. (I have to disagree with you, Herb, about the music - some of the pieces rank high among my list of favorites). And, of course, thanks to movie magic technology, the movies are visually stunning.
Both the LOTR books and the movies made fantasy a respectable genre. I have to wonder if HBO would have taken a chance on Game of Thrones if the LOTR (and Harry Potter) movies hadn't been so successful.
The books are long and the characters do take a long time to get where they're going, but I enjoyed making the journey with them. When I first got my Kindle a couple of years ago, I ordered an e-version (even though I have hardbound and paperback copies) of the LOTR with the intention of someday reading it again (you know, when I run out of other stuff to read . . .). I also have a boxed set of cassette recordings of the radio serial broadcast that aired a gazillion years ago. I can remember my sisters and I huddling around the radio either in the basement or our bedroom to listen to each installment.
Tolkien, along with Asimov, Herbert, Shakespeare, and Lewis, are some of the earliest authors I remember reading (beyond the stuff you're required to read in school). They kindled my imagination, influenced me and inspired me probably in more ways than even I know.
Happy reading!
|
|
Joined: 2/27/2011
Posts: 353
|
I love The Lord of the Rings, and try to reread it every other year. (I also reread Les Miserables about once every three years, so it's possible I am simply a masochist.)
I do confess to skipping over Tom Bombadil every time. And most of the singing. LOL!
But I remember the first time I read LOTR, and the effect it had on me. I was twelve years old, introverted and lonely, and the friendship between Sam and Frodo seemed very important to me at the time. When I got to the end where Sam is left alone at Grey Havens while Frodo sails away with the elves, I was so upset that I burst into tears and threw the book against the wall hard enough to crack the spine. I think I cried for an hour straight.
Ah, emo teenagers!
|
|
Joined: 6/28/2011
Posts: 188
|
@ Carl: Yeah, I don't think I would have wanted to be one of Tolkien's first readers. Not only would there be the frustration of not being able to read at your own pace, but there was also the whole interrupted-by-a-potentially-civilization-destroying-war thing.
@Angela: Obviously, responses to music are extremely personal. I thought the main Ring Theme was quite good, but all of the Gaelic (Celtic?) horn music just felt like it was constantly attempting to remind me to be wistful, and to me it felt too real-world historical just as all of the scenery felt too real-world New Zealand. There were certainly some choices that made the story work better for the screen -- it would have been very awkward to try to explain, for instance, that Frodo is in his 50s even though he looks the same age as the younger hobbits. The omission of Tom Bombadil was also sensible, and the expansion of Arwen's importance to the story. But there are so many ways that Jackson weakened and watered down the characters, and so many places where he slows down an already sedately paced movie by going to slow motion without any good reason, and so many gooey, gloppy orcs, and so many places where he gets cheap and heavy-handed where subtlety would have been so much better (like giving Bilbo CGI fangs and evil eyes when he tries to grab the Ring in Rivendell, instead of relying on the masterful Ian Holm to get the meaning across with his performance) ... well, I just need to stop myself. As I said, I'm a curmudgeon about the films.
@Colleen: You were a more mature 12-year-old than I was. That's when I first read the books too, and I simply thought they were immensely boring. I was in my 30s before I read them with the benefit of enough life experience to appreciate their mastery. I skip a lot of the singing too, but I read Tom Bombadil. I love the way Tolkien put him there to tell the reader, "Yes, a lot of these small things may go very, very badly. But the big things will turn out all right in the end."
|
|
Joined: 4/27/2011
Posts: 608
|
Loved everyone's responses here! Nice discussion-starter, Herb.
@Colleen? Thank you for sharing. Although your experience is your own, I can relate in my own way to the "introverted and lonely" part of your anecdote. Suffice it to say that I had to smuggle library books into the house as a young boy. (Book-reading and creative writing were banned, deeply-subversive and highly-suspect activities as far as Step-mother was concerned.) But the intensity and totality with which I could "fall down the rabbit hole" back then when reading fiction is difficult to convey in 2013, now that I am a responsible, senses-atrophied, wonder-stunted adult. I can recall, at these late years, the pulse-pounding thrill of rising from bed in the dark of early-A.M. to steal softly into the bathroom (slowly, slowly, a floorboard mustn’t creak or the Book Hater will awake!) to greedily read by the pallid orange glow of the nightlight: Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, the Mary Poppins books of P. L. Travers, L. Frank Baum, Ray Bradbury, Charles Schultz’s Peanuts strips, et. al.
Ah, memories! "Reading saved me" is a cliché recited by many writers looking back at difficult childhoods but in my instance—as in yours and so many others', it seems—it is no less vital, dramatic and transformative a truth for being so very, very common an experience.
Sorry to hijack the thread, Herb! Now, back over to all things single-mindedly Tolkien and LOTR-ish . . .
|
|
Joined: 2/27/2011
Posts: 353
|
I'm loving this conversation!
Speaking of LOTR and Tolkien, have any of you ever read China Mieville's decidedly anti-Tolkien rants? China despises what he calls "consolatory fantasy" and frequently railed against Tolkien and writers like him early in his own career.
Later he backtracked a little, and admitted that Tolkien had been responsible for many positive changes in the narrative flow of fantasy storytelling (hello, worldbuilding, anyone?).
Here's China advocating for Tolkien: http://www.omnivoracious.com/2009/06/there-and-back-again-five-reasons-tolkien-rocks.html
And here's China railing against Tolkien: http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=7813
Enjoy! =)
|
|
Joined: 6/28/2011
Posts: 188
|
Two interesting pieces by Mieville, both of which reinforce my impression that he's an immensely talented writer who's also a bit too full of himself.
I reviewed Perdido Street Station on Amazon.com a few years back:
http://www.amazon.com/review/R2EI1KQ7P4EZUW/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm
I haven't read anything by him since, and the way he praises Jackson while sneering at Tolkien in the second piece disinclines me from reading him further. That's probably a mistake, since I did think Perdido Street Station was very good. But it's difficult for me to maintain respect for an author who attempts such an intellectualized defense of fantasy as a legitimate genre but then conflates "sword and sorcery" with "high fantasy" and suggests that Tolkien single-handedly established both. In fact they're two remarkably different sub-genres, the latter of which predates LOTR by decades.
Anyway, thanks for sharing the links, Colleen.
And thanks for sharing your childhood anecdote, Carl. Very moving.
|
|
Joined: 8/21/2011
Posts: 394
|
Oh, Carl, I can't imagine growing up in a household where reading was discouraged - outright banned! Walks to the local branch of the public library - especially during the summer - were a weekly ritual. I remembered being immensely proud when I got my first library card. And, during the school year, we would get these little flyers (once a month I think) from the Scholastic Book Services. My mother always let us order books. I'm so glad as a child you found a way to sneak reading and writing into your life. I think I speak for many here on Book Country - you're a wonderful writer, a fantastic discussion thread contributor/starter, and a thoughtful reviewer. This site is richer because of your contributions.
Colleen - I don't think I cried when I got to that chapter, but I remember being sad but thinking that it had to end that way. That with this type of story, not everything could be 100% happy. I was pretty much an introvert when I was kid/teenager (hell, adult), so reading was a way for me to share in adventures and visit new worlds (still is, though now I can afford to take a trip overseas every now and then).
Herb - Yes, responses to music are highly subjective. And the Celtic-inspired stuff that bothered you is the stuff in particular I like. But that's one of the joys of music: why a particular assemblage of notes affects one person in one way, but another person in another way is mysterious and glorious. And I agree, some of the CGI stuff (especially Bilbo's demonic transformation) was way over the top and unnecessary. And I could have done without the long, drawn out battle scenes. In fact, I admit it, when I last reread the books, I read Tom Bombadil part, and enjoyed all the lyrics to the songs, and read all the appendices, but skimmed the battle stuff. Whenever I find myself comparing a book to its movie version, I try instead to compare the book to other books and the movie to other movies. (Recently read Gaiman's Stardust after having seen the movie again - WHOA! Major differences!) I love the LOTR books (and like so many of you here on Book Country, I've been greatly influenced by them) and I love the LOTR movies.
Great thread, Herb! Thanks for starting it.
|
|
Joined: 6/28/2011
Posts: 188
|
I wish I could compare the LOTR movies to other movies and be sure that my reading of the books wasn't interfering. But I'm sure that I would have reacted differently to the movies if I'd never read the books. (Especially if Celtic horn music floated my boat.)
|
|
Joined: 4/30/2011
Posts: 662
|
I'll be honest, I didn't get through all of the LOTR, ever. Even when I took it as a class. I'd get to the last book in RETURN OF THE KING, and I couldn't do it. I just couldn't. Tolkien bores me to tears.
Learning about him, on the other hand, simply fascinating. The reason why Orc is spelled with a "c" is because of Tolkien. It was originally Ork, and that is how I spell it. And the hobbits were based after the White Rabbit from Alice in Wonderland, no joke. There are all sorts of references in his work. Treebeard is C.S. Lewis, and there is a reason why Sad Elf Girl and "I am no man!" have similar sounding names. Look up Dr. John Bowers. He has a his a recorded lecture series on Tolkien. I just can't remember where to get it.
|
|
|
|
Tolkien went up in my estimation when I learned it took him 12 years to write Lord Of The Rings. I somehow find that empowering.
|
|
Joined: 6/28/2011
Posts: 188
|
@LeeAnna: These books aren't for everyone. They almost weren't for me. I had to read them three times (at 12, 22, and 30-something) before I'd acquired a suitable frame of mind to appreciate them. I think many readers make the same mistake I did in my youth, which was to read them as an epic adventure story and wonder why, instead of being a romp in the woods, they present their characters drudging through such dismal, wretched, slow circumstances. It wasn't until my third reading that I realized Tolkien was not writing a fantastical story about an imaginary world, but a realistic story about the real world, which simply uses an imaginary world as its setting.
@GD: Well, he did have one or two other things on his mind during that period!
|
|
Joined: 6/7/2011
Posts: 467
|
I find Mieville's opinions fairly close to the mark (though yes, he does like the look of his own font).
Taken all for all, LOTR is no particular favorite of mine but I don't find it boring. I reread it about a year ago actually, and found it a pleasant enough way to spend some time. I first read it back in college at a time when I was surrounded by true Tolkien freaks and mostly kept my peace.
I found China's first kudos, the introduction of Norse myth instead of the well-trod Greek myth to be especially interesting. The canon of Greek myth has been abused since at least the Victorian era, and by abused I mean sanitized, sanctified, and generally scrubbed. Mostly, I think this was an attempt to get Greek myth to 'fit' with what most regarded as 'Christian' values, which is like trying to wedge a constantly morphing, fourteen dimensional Necker peg into a matchbox.
Greek myth itself is a hodgepodge. You would search high and wide before you would find an equal collection of demented, unsavory, utterly unfettered gods, humans and monsters. It is rich material, too often reduced to comic book cliches or mossy marble icons.
In the first novel I ever wrote (really the first THING ever wrote) I specifically wanted to get at the pre-classical roots of Greek myth (which led me to Crete and the Minoans. This allowed me a lot of freedom to invent, but I always tried to visualize my inventions as underpinnings of what came later.) hopefully to bust up some of those marble statues which had become so boring, without losing the crazy energy which led to their creation. I still like the idea. Actually, I still like the book, though I haven't revisited it for a while.
|
|
Joined: 4/30/2011
Posts: 662
|
Atthys, it's funny that you bring up that fact that Tolkien used Norse mythology because he used Greek mythology too. Remember how I mentioned that Ork's correct spelling is with a "k," that's because it's Greek. The concept of the English Isles be a land of fantastic creatures, actually ties to the Greeks. He had to change it to "c" because of the language base he was using, and actually preferred.
Now if you want to go into references, talk about the WWI and WWII ones. His experiences were heavily influential on both the HOBBIT and LOTR. People like to talk about the mythology, but never really his life influences. Count all the spiders he has in his work. Notice how big and scary they are, and then remember he was bitten by a tarantula as a child while living in South Africa. He really didn't like spiders.
Herb, I know they aren't. I get they're slow going and have read works that influence him. Works that he taught. I really wanted to get into them because I don't mind work that takes time to build or is more philosophical. I just couldn't catch the bug. It's like it avoided me or something. I wish I could be a LOTR lover because I love fantasy. I write it, but I guess it wasn't meant to be.
|
|
Joined: 6/28/2011
Posts: 188
|
Atthys, I know whereof you speak when you talk about Tolkien freaks. My willingness to re-approach the books (after my failure to like them in middle-school) was delayed by the very verve and enthusiasm so many of my peers expressed when they discovered the trilogy in high school. Something about the way so many idolized this thing, when I'd found it so tedious, made me all the snootier in my opinion.
LeeAnna, I used to feel the same way about the movies that you do about the books. I wanted to like them, I tried for years to like them, but ultimately, I came to terms with the fact that they're just not for me. Now that I'm at peace with that, it's like a weight has been lifted.
|
|
|
|
How goes the reading?
|
|
|
|
LeeAnna, this is the closest I could find to what you were saying about Dr Bowers' Tolkien lectures:
http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=2120
My Google-fu is more like Google-foo.
|
|
Joined: 6/28/2011
Posts: 188
|
Still very slow! I'm a little past the 1/4 mark in Return of the King.
My main reading time is my lunch hour at work, which is also my main BC time, and to make things worse, work has heated up lately, and I haven't been taking the full hour most days.
|
|
|
|
Last time I read LotR, it took forever. It's a slow read no matter how much time you have, imho.
|
|
Joined: 5/27/2013
Posts: 108
|
Oh it saddens my heart to see this chat. Not saying the words are false, but I was around 12 or 13 when I read The Hobbit, followed immediately by LOTR, and I have been a fantasy buff since. I remember not the long tales, but the immersion into that world and the great memories they gave me. That was, hmm...we will just say some time ago, and I have never returned to them for fear of fouling the memories I have. Later I learned more about the author and what it was he had truely created, including an entire launguage. That cemented him as one of my favorites. So when the movies rolled around, I was able to just sit and be drawn into the specticle, which I rather enjoyed. Yet even I knew that the immense volumes of text could no more be condesed into 10 hours of film than an Orc could be stored in a cereal box. I now fear what may be said of my tales, since I draw from Tolkien's style, or at least the memory of it.
|
|
|
|
" the immersion into that world" for me, that's what makes it slow. there's just so much to take in and my adhd brain can handle only so much at a time.
|
|
|
|
How's it going, Herb??
|
|
Joined: 6/7/2013
Posts: 1356
|
I have to admit--GASP!!!--that I have never read LOTR. I DID see some of the places where the movie was filmed when I visited New Zealand about a decade ago. Is that good enough? (LOL.)
Does anybody here ever listen to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography podcast? It's such a cool way to learn about history and culture, and their bios of famous writers are so entertaining! They've got one on Tolkein you all might like. If you click on the hyperlink you'll see the link to download that episode. --edited by Lucy Silag on 7/12/2013, 11:14 AM--
|
|
|
|
I didn't know that podcast was out there. Then again, there are so many that I've never heard of - and who has time to listen to them all? 
|
|
|
|