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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 214
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I started a topic about unacceptable character flaws quite a
while back, and because I’m mulling this over as a blog topic, I just gotta
know:
What are some of the things romance writers do that make you
totally hate-hate-hate their heroines? Way back in the day, I’d go through my
mom’s old stash o’ category romances, and the heroines were just unbelievably
perfect. Thin, blond, winsome and pure as the driven snow. There seemed to be
only one, and the rest was done with mirrors. So … if the goal is to create a
character with whom readers relate, shouldn’t she be somewhat believable?
I have my own pet peeves. For starters, the naturally rail-slim,
beautiful-without-makeup, age 30 + heroine has gotta go (come on, ladies, we
all know that after a certain age, you gotta start working at it just a
little). I’ve noticed that more and more authors write about the voluptuous-figured
gal these days. There are other things that drive me nuts in romance heroines,
but I’d like to hear more about your pet peeves first.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 279
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The demure, dumb, clueless and passive gals have to go. Or the heroine that has a very hard-core job and doesn't have the intelligence to back it up. Please. You really want me to believe you are a district attorney who needs a man to take care of her? With some of these careers you wouldn't survive if you weren't self-sufficient.
Lisa, I'm right there with you with the 30+ with the figure of an 18 year old bit, or the perfectly toned body without working out daily. Don't get me started on the characters who have kids and still look incredible without a lot of effort. Having a baby is does more damage to your body than being run over by a bus and you probably look better after the bus.
One of my personal pet peeves is the mass amounts of redheaded heroines with perfect skin. No mention of freckles or skin that looks like it's painted with pepto after ten minutes in the sun, or the people going for their sunglasses to block the glare from your legs if you wear shorts.
Ok, last one...the stunning beauty who doesn't know she's beautiful. Seriously?
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 214
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Ooo! Along the career line, one of my most loathsome heroines is “Dora Houser, M.D./J.D./M.B.A.” – the heroine who’s under 30 and yet somehow she has a thriving medical practice, veterinary clinic, catering business, etc. – or, she’s senior partner at a law firm or holds a position of prestige. Was heroine a child genius who attended college at age 12? In the real non-“Melrose Place” world, this type of success comes to women who are in their mid-30s and older.
The heroines with the perfect porcelain skin irk me to no end, too, no matter what their hair color. Not to say that I want them riddled with acne scars, but c’mon. And hair. The average age Caucasian women start to go grey is 33, and yet none of the heroines I’ve read about touch up their roots! ☺
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Joined: 3/17/2011
Posts: 3
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I just read a book where the all the heroine cared about was her career, so she'd never had sex because she was focused on her career. Which... just seemed really strange to me. I didn't realize the two were mutually exclusive. The hero was dedicated to his career and he certainly wasn't a virgin.
After having a kid, I hate any heroine that has had children and is thin. So, I agree with Ivoid... on that point.
I hate a wishy washy heroine. There's trying to figure out what to do and then there's whining about what to do every five seconds. Or a selfish heroine that doesn't think about anybody but herself, but never changes.
But mostly, I hate characters whose motivation is lacking or unclear. I think almost anything else can be overcome with good writing. But if the character (heroine, hero or other) doesn't have a motivation I can understand, I'm probably not going to like them.
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Joined: 4/26/2011
Posts: 52
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My pet peeve is the fragile woman. She can't do a thing for herself until a man comes along to save the day. I'd like to believe she could have had some kind of life without him, even though there would be a void.
Also, I hate it when a female character is built up to be a smart independent woman who, nonetheless, jumps in the sack with the male lead without even knowing him for a day. I'd rather see the female have some self respect to go along with her intelligence. I think it's okay for her to go head over heels or to lose her head in a moment, but not right at the get go.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 102
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I'm with @Ivoidwarrenties. For me it's not about the looks, it's about the intelligence level. I guess that's why I picked one of those types for my book - so I could bring out her spunk and change her from a decision-shy lemming to strong independent woman.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 279
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Another big heroine pet peeve...the Tomboy. You know, the girl who hates to wear a dress or to do anything remotely female, but they are drop dead gorgeous and don't know it.
In fantasy books the one that drives me crazy is the girl who dresses like a boy and pretends to be a boy for whatever demented reason they have. This girl is usually a really good swordsman, but doesn't have the broken fingers, scars and calluses that would go along with the skill. Same with the archer type. I had several staff fighting lessons as part of a self defense course and one of my fingers is STILL crooked from a bad blow. That was only after a few hours, I can't imagine someone with years of practice would look like.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
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@Toni
I was going to mention the same thing that you did, but I didn’t want to ruffle any feathers. ☺ It’s troublesome when I read books where the heroine pops into bed with the hero without giving much thought to it. A lot of chick lit fiction still has the female protagonist sleeping around randomly with guys (“friends with benefits”) who don’t really care about them until they finally find “the one” who does. This is not to say that I want to read about a heroine who’s practically virginal – that doesn’t strike me as being realistic, either. But I’d like for her to have a good head on her shoulders.
Not only does this not work for me in terms of characterization, it sucks the life out of the plot. I want to read a romance that keeps the two leads lusting after each other as long as possible. Reading a sex scene the first couple of chapters in is sort of like having dessert first and then being forced to eat spinach.
The “tomboy” who doesn’t want to look feminine is also another pet peeve. I get the impression that these heroines don’t shave their legs. Let’s translate this to real life, shall we? Most men want a woman who looks somewhat like a woman.
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Joined: 4/26/2011
Posts: 52
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That shouldn't ruffle feathers. It's a personal choice that I would prefer to see intelligent, self respecting female protagonists. Now, if someone were to write about a woman who has a reason to be more promiscuous, if the storyline is there to back it up, it's a whole different ballgame. If the character is more complex, such as, she has a reason to seek male companionship because of something that happened to her in childhood, or she lacks self confidence and, perhaps, learns through the male lead how to think more of herself, then I think the story warrants it. I think that a story that has built a character to have a certain self reliant, intelligence, kind of spoils the whole purpose behind making her that way if they then rush the relationship. But, as in real life, fictional characters sometimes make bad choices and that can make it a better read if it's done right.
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Joined: 3/12/2011
Posts: 376
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OK, I'm trimming this. WAY too many pet peeves in this category. Shorthand for all of them? Heroines who refuse to deal with reality, whether the glasses are rose colored or dun.
Two subsets that engender particular ire:
A heroine who is deluded about whether a man likes her or not annoys me. A friend of mine did a blog article about that type of thing a while back - http://fidelblogstro.blogspot.com/2009/07/my-weird-interpretations.html
Another - heroines who lust after 'bad boys' but want to settle down. Bad boys are called that for a reason, they use women and move on. Great for a fling, loads of fun, but not generally HEA material, because they're, y'know, tautologically BAD, as in 'not Good'. I've heard all kinds of arguments about 'the challenge of taming them', but isn't that fundamentally changing someone? At that point, won't the heroine, y'know, *not like them* any more? OK, stopping now, before the foam gets to thick.
@Void - what about a tomboy who actually *looks* like a tomboy, dirty face, broken nails, messy hair, scars and all? Given typical tomboy behavior, they're probably in pretty good physical condition. Combined with physical confidence that can make a woman attractive to the right kind of guy, even if she isn't 'model / made up' pretty.
@Tony / Lisa - what about a woman who has the 'Easy A' situation going on? Someone who is selective, but has a reputation for rampant promiscuity? Finally, does it make it better or worse if the character is pragmatic about sex rather than romantic?
Also, I think 'utterly competent UNTIL the hero comes along, at which point they become fragile' is worse by far than 'fragile from the get go'. I wouldn't personaly be interested in the latter, but the former is a bait-and-switch, ne?
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Joined: 4/26/2011
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@Robert- character development through plot and backstory is key. Who says you can't be pragmatic and romantic? Wouldn't both be the ideal?
Not fragile from the get go...putting out from the get go without proper character development or setting up a character as being one thing, but then making them do uncharacteristic things without explanation. Which is the same thing as being competent until the hero comes along and then throwing everything the character was said to be down the rat hole. Totally agree with the bait and switch! True that.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 279
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@Robert I have no problem if the girl in question is a real tomboy and acts it. Tamora Pierce writes a young adult series that features a couple female characters who are warriors and does a fabulous job. Neither character is every portrayed as a real beauty and in the case of one, she was very masculine after having to build up muscle tone.
The characters had scars and the author wrote in-depth about the struggles they had trying to keep up with the heavier built boys.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 214
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@Robert
Dayum, dude, you’re making me think myself into a headache! ☺
In response to your @, I see major flaws in having a promiscuous heroine who approaches sex both pragmatically or romantically. If she’s pragmatic about it, this shows a sort of emotional detachment from a very intimate act. But, if she’s a wild girl and falls head over heels with every man she beds, she’s probably going to have self-esteem issues or bad judgment. I have divorced friends who are old enough to know better who STILL DO THIS and can’t figure out why the guy never calls the morning after. Sorry, honey, but if you didn’t figure that out back in college, I don’t have the heart to explain it to you now. (But maybe your middle school-aged kid can tell you.)
I did read a really good romance many years ago about a beautiful heroine – either a model or actress – who was promiscuous, but her reasons for having sex were for self-validation. Her father always made her feel like poo on his show, and detached sex – without any physical enjoyment – was like a drug that gave her self-esteem a temporary boost. Then she met the hero and did a 180-degree turn around, and it was actually fascinating to see how she changed. So in certain rare instances, I can see how that might work.
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Joined: 3/12/2011
Posts: 376
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@Lisa - Hey, I'm a teacher. Encouraging thought is what we do, nowadays, y'know? Facts are what the internet and smartphones are for.
I'm actually writing a series (sci fi) where the meta-plot for the series is a redemption and romance arc. The (for simplicity's sake) Heroine of the piece is from a culture that, for survival reasons, deliberately tried to remove the romantic and emotional connections from sex. She grew up with 'sex as a party favor' and takes a very pragmatic view about sex. Over the course of the series, she uses it as a reward, to pay off a bet, and twice for theraputic purposes (for someone else). All of these are completely separate from her actions with the Hero. Also, yeah, she *does* have intimacy issues, stemming from being the sole survivor of an apocalyptic event, but those mostly prevent her from confiding in the Hero when she really ought.
The Hero is conservative, even prudish. Since the series is from his POV, she comes off as being promiscuous, which is a big part of the romantic conflict. It goes downhill from there, really, but about half of the conflict between them has to do with her treating things in a completely pragmatic manner (which doesn't always succeed, because some things *are* intimate), and him trying to be an idealist (and failing, because reality hates idealists).
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Joined: 3/12/2011
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@Toni - Well, 'pragmatic' and 'idealist' generally are seen as polar opposites, and 'romantic' is generally a specific subset of idealist who believes in the supremacy of the ideal of affection, but...
Cognitive dissonance. It exists, and since people have it, characters will to. So I guess you could have a character who is both pragmatic and romantic, but I would have a hard time buying into a character who is pragmatic and romantic about the same aspect of their life.
I suppose in terms of character integrity, I could deal with anything along the promiscuity spectrum from total wanton to complete prude, as long as any moves *along* the spectrum are, at some point, justified.
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Joined: 3/12/2011
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@Void - I'd debate whether a Tomboy can be 'beautiful'. I'd say they *can* most definitely be beautiful, but they're not going to be effeminate. They won't have soft hands. They won't have too many gently rounded curves. But there's at least one hardbody *man* who prompted my completely straight friends to say 'Yeah, he's a beautiful man', just because he had a very attractive face combined with the right body to go with a pretty face.
Traditional beauty? Probably not. Beautiful face? With a little luck, still possible. Effeminate, ethereal beauty? Not happening, I agree with you there. But I would posit that you can have a Tomboy who can qualify as a beautiful woman.
I actually find it easier to believe in a beautiful Tomboy than a 'pretty' Tomboy. The former has to do with a certain physical presence, the latter with a variety of effeminate characteristics.
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Joined: 4/26/2011
Posts: 52
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@Robert...being pragmatic means to look at something from a practical viewpoint. If you look at something pragmatically it doesn't always follow that it will be the opposite of what you consider ideal. In fact, if it is the right thing to do, and most importantly, what a character has been developed to be, then if follow that it makes more sense. Intelligent decisions can lead to fulfilling romance, where, uncharacteristic choices can lead to disappointment and heartache...in a character and a reader. Now, if the story is about heartbreak and is not meant to be a happily ever after...different ballgame. BTW, I'm also a teacher. 16 years and counting.
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Joined: 3/12/2011
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@Toni - Fair 'nuff. I tend to write broken folks, so it doesn't happen much in my writing, but I can see it.
16 years? Whoa. Hasn't been near that long for me. What do you teach?
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Joined: 4/26/2011
Posts: 52
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I put my education to work for me and mine. I taught my oldest son all the way through. He started junior college when he was 16, and then went to the University of Texas. Art History is his passion. I would love for him to teach. Once he gets his Masters, I'm hoping he can be a professor at the local university. Things are tight with jobs right now, so we'll see. I'm now teaching my youngest. He will be in the fourth grade next year. Age wise, he should be third, but he started reading chapter books at 4. So, he is going at a faster pace. How about you?
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Joined: 3/12/2011
Posts: 376
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I did some adult education stuff (computer lit classes) while I was working in the computer field, but I've moved to teaching High School Biology full time. Having a two month break every year, instead of going five to six years without time off, is a really shocking experience.
I teach in Camden City, New Jersey (Murder City!) at Woodrow Wilson High School. It's... different. I have kids in class who are brilliant, but have never actually learned to sight-read. They wind up sounding out every word. It's a little depressing at times.
Still, as I've put in some of my dedications, my kids inspire me. Of course, that might be why so many of the characters I write are so badly broken. 
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Joined: 4/26/2011
Posts: 52
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That's very inspiring! The world needs more teachers like you. I'm sure it's challenging...in good and bad ways. I know it has to be hard to work with cutbacks and so many of the facilities nowadays are awful. Not to mention the outside influences some of your kids have to deal with. I've got a few teacher friends who are having a hard time finding work. It's crazy. Have you ever thought about turning some of your experiences into a writing project...either fiction or non-fiction? I bet there are some stories you could tell!
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Joined: 3/12/2011
Posts: 376
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I hear that all the time, really. I... I'm not sure. There are a lot of stories, but most of them are depressingly similar.
I might do it some day. I'm not sure I could write that. I've written graphic descriptions of zombies defiling someone, and I'm not sure I could write the stories of my students.
Yeah. Depressing, I know.
One of the problems we have is that out-of-work teachers will stay on unemployment rather than working here.
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Joined: 3/12/2011
Posts: 376
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*snicker snort*
I can personally attest to the fact that twenty-something virgins DO exist, and that they fumble as much as you'd expect on first attempts. Of course, the argument could be made that those twenty something virgins have a *lot* of repressed libido that's all gonna come out in a rush, so them being *eager* doesn't stretch my credulity one bit.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 214
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Robert, you crack me up!
I lived in a private all-girls dorm when I was at university, and yes, there were a few twentysomething virgins hanging around. And some of them were quite anxious to just get it over with. However, of all the girls I talked to after "the night," all of them were sort of, "Huh --?" about the incident. I get the feeling that being devirginized was for them -- as it was for me -- a little befuddling, and they really didn't quite know what to expect from the experience. I'll never forget a conversation I had with one of my dormmates:
Me: Well, did you, uh ... you know, did you ...?
Her: (whispering covertly) Have an orgasm?
Me: Uh, yeah, that.
Her: I think so.
Me: You mean you don't know?
Classic.
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Joined: 3/12/2011
Posts: 376
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@Lisa - The best answer I've ever heard for that: "If you don't know, you didn't."
*grins*
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Joined: 2/27/2011
Posts: 353
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This thread has had me laughing like a hyena for the past ten minutes. =)
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 244
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The one I hate is the one in a career that doesn't pay near enough for the lifestyle the heroine leads. Like an early-twenties fact-checker at a New York magazine is going to have the funds to go gallivanting all over Italy only to do just about the same thing a month later.
As for the 20-something virgin being implausible? I know over 100 (me being one of them) and not one of them are looking to give that up any time soon.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 279
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This thread's really taken off again.
How about the virgin heroine who turns in the V-card with another virgin? The very idea of what that would read like in a romance cracks me up. I'd love to see a Romance author tackle the reality of that particular combo. Of course it would probably be a really short scene and not very romantic.
@LisaMarie @Robert The reaction I remember hearing from my girlfriends in school was "That was what all the fuss was about?"
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Joined: 5/5/2011
Posts: 37
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I think my pet peeve is that there is a set idea of what perfection is in a lot of novels. The stories that I enjoy writing the most are ones that have even the most perfect of forms, beings, or ideas of what perfect is, such as an angel and then as the story goes on reveal how imperfect even such a being can be.
I like the idea of imperfections making them perfect for who they are meant to be with. Like it's perfect that you go to the beach not to swim but to eat hot dogs slathered in ketchup and then smores for desert. It's perfect that she/he has a horrible singing voice and they laugh together at their imperfectness.
Perfect is in the imperfections.
@lisamarie, as for the conversation about virgins, I totally had that conversation with one of my friends before. "I think so..." I guess if I didnt know then it didnt happen. lol, those conversations were embarrassing at the time but crack me up now.
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Joined: 6/3/2011
Posts: 9
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I think the biggest problem is that they go for the single women with no real problems in her life. She is probably saving herself for marriage so when she meets our hero she is "pure". I don't know about you ladies, but last time I checked getting your virginity taken hurts ALOT. There is just no way to make it easier, and in every book I read with a virgin in it the author makes it all seem so enjoyable and romantic. I call Shenanigans! My question is where is the every day crap we women have to put up with? You know what I'm talking about. In no book I've read did it say anything about haveing to do the laundry, guys passing you up to drool at possible supermodels, or even paying bills. It just makes me feel like the little things that make us so interdependent and hard working are even getting unappreciated in books. Where is the representation of a real women? (all that and I'm not even a feminist)
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 214
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RE:
“I call Shenanigans!”
I’m still giggling into my kettle corn over that one. But I do know what you mean, absolutely. And this gets back to Steph’s comment about books where the heroine lives a lifestyle beyond her means, and the author doesn’t explain where all this extra income is coming from. I have one of those meticulous minds that starts calculating $$ whenever I read about expenditures, and a lot of heroines seem to have it really cush on their own, which is typically not the case.
I dunno. I have a theory that maybe some romance writers want to expand the fairy tale element of the actual romance into other aspect of the heroine’s life. She’s never passed over for promotion for a less-experienced male, never has to have a roommate after thirty, and her car never breaks down. Heroines who are widows in their twenties? Please. Unless the dead husband was in the military, how frequently does this happen? A lot of women are divorced by the time they’re in their thirties. There’s still a stigma attached to divorced heroines (and heroes, for that matter).
P.S. Not a feminist either -- just a hard-working single gal. 
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Joined: 6/3/2011
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It's funny you should say the car breaking down thing. lol In my book that's how the heroine meets the hero. I tried to make it as realistic as possible with it still being a paranormal romance. I agree about the living beyond their means in books because you notice almost all heroines now a days are almost rich? I've never been rich or even comfortable, and especially in this recession. So how am I suppose to write like all the women in my books are? I'd be too jealous of fictional characters for that! I read one book where a unknown relative dies and left her all their money. I know it's fiction, but that's some hardcore fiction to me. When does that ever happen and where do I sign up? It always seems like the women of the stories are never greedy either. Gold diggers are not a myth, but you never see any mentioned in a romance novel. Even as a side character no one is ever a bad person that really only cares for themselves and doesn't change. Come on, we have all met those type of people. Hell, I've dated a few.
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Joined: 4/26/2011
Posts: 22
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I don't like reading about heroines that are the ignorant, simpering miss OR the tough as nails gal. I prefer a combination of the two. How about a damsel in distress that can hold her own? Perhaps a bit stubborn, but one that doesn't take the hero role away from the guy. I like a romance where you can sense the attraction, the conflict between the two MC, where they BOTH give. I like the idea that it's an equal relationship. And while I grow weary of the perfect, skinny minnys, I don't mind for the hero to be a buff, handsome man that sweeps me off my feet!
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Joined: 10/20/2011
Posts: 350
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I have a few pet peeves.
I finished reading one novel where the heroine is separated from her husband through unusual circumstances but there is a chance she can return to him. She has to marry another man to save her life and she does have some guilt over betraying her husband. This lasts though for only a few hours, until she consummates her new marriage. After that, she thinks about him every now and then, but feels no guilt has she has sex with her new husband as if they were rabbits.
Another pet peeve of mine is "They're bickering, it must be love!" Yes, love-hate relationships can be exciting and spicy if done right. Yet it seems to me everyone does them to the point of oversaturation. In another book I read, the author paired up a character we had watched grow up throughout the series using this. The romance wasn't terribly fleshed out beyond this, with the heroine acting openly hostile to her romantic interest. She only gives into him after getting very little rest due to an epidemic sweeping her town. She is one of the few people trained in medicine and helps out. At this point, several people had died--including a woman who was family to the heroine. She was too emotionally fragile for me to accept that she suddenly loved him.
I know romance needs some suspension of disbelief, but I think we all want at least a little realism in there.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 412
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On a reversal, I've found a female romance character I LOVE, and would love to see in a more romance oriented book than she's in. Anyone familiar with the TV show Castle, with Nathan Fillion? Fillion plays a writer, and writes a book series in the show, based on the other characters, particularly the female lead. They got a previously published mystery author to write the novels in the real world. The female lead, Nikki Heat, is that exact mix of tough as nails, but able to lose control and be emotional, that really works for me. There are some love scenes in the book, but they are rather short, and the romance is an element of the novel, but not the biggest. But she is a WONDERFUL romance novel character, imo.
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Joined: 1/10/2012
Posts: 192
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Love this thread, and all the responses! You guys pretty much went through my mental list. I have to say that I cannot stand a heroine who is, in fact, not the heroine. She's the whiny, self-absorbed, immature, ridiculous Mary Sue of the author, not quite in disguise. Give me a break. And how about the "plain" Jane who ends up somehow with some inhumanly (literally or figuratively) beautiful/handsome guy? Yeah, right. Reality check, please.
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Joined: 2/27/2011
Posts: 353
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Bumping this up, cos I think this is a fantastic discussion and I want some of our newer members to see it.
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Joined: 3/12/2012
Posts: 8
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I have one novel--unsold, and basically because I made the heroine too realistic. I wanted her to be cold and self centered. I wanted her to be a workaholic with no personal life or romantic interest. Yes she has money because she is successful from all of the concentrated work and she loves her desginer clothes, maybe she is even snobbish at times. But I also wanted the reader to feel sorry for her and want to pull for her to see what she was missing.
To make the changes suggested by various editors, the basic story line would be gone. The character grows, but it is a very long arc to make it realistic and believable.
Anyway, thanks for this conversation and a chance for me to rethink my plot and what can be done.
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Joined: 3/12/2011
Posts: 376
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@Johnny - I suspect you may be starting the story in the wrong place if you're writing a romance. Typically those stories start at the point things start to change. You can still *show* that the character has been a workaholic for twenty yars, but showing twenty years of workaholism... isn't entertaining.
I'm actually rereading the thread because I just finished an MS which is a redemption story, and I'm trying to see if I pulled it off. A character who had done some really vile things is given a chance to make amends. The difficult part was finding a way to make a vile character who really was vile believably change and want to change.
Also, in TWO books in the same series, I've written the Virgin & Virgin thing. I had fun with it both times
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