You gotta ask that, huh? When I'm happy with it, after having digested all the crits and having made the changes I'm willing to make.

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When I'm happy with it? Cripe! That may be never. How about, when the things about it that thrill me far outweigh the choices I agonize over, a florid style, for instance, that may go too far for most readers, but pleases me tremendously.

You're always ready to self publish. There are no requirements other then desire.

Ideally, you do it when you're writing on a professional level. But if you are you don't have to self-publish. So in reality, the people who do self-publish are part of the 99% who are rejected by publishers. And their work, when it is released, will never see the hand of a professional editor who is experienced in the genre you write in.

 Now we know that about 75% of the people who have been rejected have never cracked a book on technique for writing for the printed word. These are the people who believe that although tens of thousands of people in their city have the same educational and reading background, some magical gift has made them uniquely capable of writing fiction a reader will love. Their writing is classified as unreadable by the publishers. It's not a lack of talent or dedication, it's that they're still using the nonfiction writing techniques that are part of our general education and storytelling skills that are performance art and so useless on the page.

Of the remaining 25%, publishers estimate that only three are writing on a professional level. These are the ones who might think of self publishing. And how do you know you're in that magic three percent? You've been asked for your entire manuscript before being rejected.

Not what you wanted to hear, I know. But take my case. I've sold a few novels and shorts, and owned a manuscript critiquing service before I retired, so while I may not be brilliant, I'm probably close to being at a pro level. And I say that without meaning it as a brag. Had I not antagonized the trolls on another writer site into posting revenge reviews that killed sales of my existing work I would have two or three more works published (one is actually under contract but will never be released, the other was about to be placed there ad was a six part series)

But because of that, and because I was left with the six volume romance series that no one will pick up now, I decided to release the series as a self published set with the first to be my readers' audition and offered free. Thus far two of the six have been released, with the third coming out in two weeks. So I'm pretty representative of what a self-publisher might expect.

Water dance was released a month ago (https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/354103). In that time nearly 400 people have downloaded it after having looked at the sample. Only two have seen fit to review it, but  they had very nice things to say (though one of them pointed out the result of not having a professional editing). I should be happy. But the second volume came out about ten days ago. That one isn't free, but the price is reasonable. With luck, and if things continue, I stand to make tens of dollars from it.

So I suppose those books are your benchmark. Look at the samples. If you feel your writing and presentation skills are greater than what's presented there, you're probably ready. If not, I wouldn't be planning to buy that new car with the royalties just yet.

I'm not trying to be discouraging, but those are the realities of the self-publishing market. Yes, one out of a million catches the public's fickle attention. But that says a million people failed for every one who didn't.

Well Jay's commented, so it would seem I'm contractually obliged to comment as well.

It seems we sort of have two questions here:

1) When did you decide your manuscript was complete?

2) Why did you choose to self-publish?

So here are the answers:

1) In short, when I didn't have anything I wanted to add to it. Scales is on draft 60 (!) on BC and while a lot of that's due to me uploading chapters piecemeal, it still says something about how often I've tweaked it or beaten parts of it into submission. I decided I was done because I'd both fixed everything my reviewers had said and everything I knew needed to be fixed. I couldn't imagine anything further I could do to improve it. How much of that was simply because I was sick of re-drafting it? I have no idea.

2) (full disclosure: I'm published with Book Country, so my opinions here are a little biased) I self-published because I couldn't face the drama of dealing with publishers. I'd thrown an older project (which I need to finish one of these days) at some publishers and gotten nowhere and I'd found the process fairly akin to shouting at a brick wall. Self-publishing is far more immediate. If my book sucks, I'm going to know pretty quickly and my next work will improve as a result (so far it's doing okay). An additional factor was that I wasn't sure how interested publishers were going to be in a urban fantasy that tries to ditch a lot of the cliches of the genre.

The other reason is that it gives me a better negotiating position with the publishers if and when I decide to go the traditional route at a later date. If you can show that you've got a solid fan base and a decent reliable sales, you're entering negotiations with a lot stronger position than you would (if you want an example, look up the fun the author of Wool had with publishers when they tried to get his books).

Sigh. It was a joke Jay. I was merely poking fun at our tendency to be interested in the same conversations and tendency to take the opposite sides of the argument. It wasn't a personal attack and I'm sorry that it caused offence.

As to your question as how my experiment is going: not as well as hoped, better than expected. Slide The Scales From My Eyes has been out for three months now and I've sold eight copies according to the reporting (though there's a delay to it, so I might have sold more. I like to think so) for a total income of ~$24 (due mostly to Amazon epically twisting the price). This is both better than I expected (ie: zero sales) and worse than hoped (Millions!).

As to the reviews. Beyond the ones written by friends, I've only had one so far, and that was 4 stars on Amazon. It was a pleasant surprise, though apparently I over-used the word 'butt' far too much in the first chapter. That's a fair criticism.

So what have I learned from my experiment? Firstly, I need to advertise more. No one else is going to do it for me. I'm trying to work out what I'm going to do for this (at the moment, put some work into my Goodreads page and finish the RPG sourcebook I want to go alongside it). Secondly, it's too soon make any immediate assessments of how good the book is. I need to wait for a more useful aggregate of reviews comes along so that I can see where I'm at with it all.

Everybody who has responded so far has brought up some really interesting--and very nuanced--points. I want to keep inviting BC members to weigh in.

Maybe you haven't self-published yet, and it's because you think you're NOT ready. Why is that?

Just throwing that out there . . .

Look, until you finish the book and edit it, nothing is solid. Hell, you already know that. You've been working on your writing for a while.

Till it's finished you're missing foreshadowing, you're going to have to rephrase and rewrite, etc., so the only thing a reader can see that's meaningful is the level of the writing, and that's apparent before the end of page four.

And in any case, giving it to the average reader, looking for reaction, falls into what  Sol Stein said: “Readers don’t notice point-of-view errors. They simply sense that the writing is bad.”

I know it's frustrating. And I know you want people to read and enjoy your work. We all want that. But other then trying to be sure you're not reinventing the wheel by digging out what works for the pros, I don't know of any shortcuts in writing fiction for the printed word. I dearly wish there were some. We all deserve success, but… 

Hi Jay,

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Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. My first four chapters are a self-contained episode, although several of the characters will turn up later, and I need to have a better idea of what part they will play when the action moves to England so I can firm up the skullduggery aboard my ship. I need only the broadest of strokes for my current purposes, but I do need a slightly more specific direction. 

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I mean to publish the first chapters as a stand-alone adventure, promote it - I have a lot of ideas - and see how it does. I  have a quirky style and I want to see if that style pleases at all, more or less as is. (The advice on BC has been to simplify, and I will, a bit.) The version that I put out will be one I have thought long and hard about and am fully committed to. It will represent my line in the sand in terms of moderating the excesses of my style.

--edited by Mimi Speike on 10/9/2013, 10:24 PM--

Hey guys--super interesting discussion here!

I have a follow up question: What does success in self-publishing mean to you?

Getting my thing to the point that I am ready to publish it, that's the first success.

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Having it downloaded, for free, in good numbers, that's the second. (I plan to promote the crap out of it, any way I can. I'll wear a sign board in Times Square and hand out promo paper dolls. I'm dead serious.)

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If people download the second installment, if they want to know what happens next, I'm golden. I'll sell that, and further material, for a dollar. My very long book will break up neatly into several pieces. The story is a series of only vaguely connected adventures. If I find that readers enjoy my loopy doings and want more of them, that will be real success. Even if it's only a small number of nutcakes on my zany wavelength. 

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There's an idea. Design goofy tinfoil hats (I'm an artist) with the slogan, Sly's My Guy. Or something. Premiums with every purchase, a time-tested strategy. Ah! The basic paperdoll offered for free with the first download, just request it by email. A new suit of clothes to match each adventure (a circus, a courtier at Queen Elizabeth's court, an assistant rat-catcher in Hamlin, an arrogant frog who may or may not be a prince, I wrote him to be a prince but have since decided that he may be delusional, and many more) mailed out with each buy of the next bit of nonsense. 

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The story is not for children, it's way too sophisticated, arch, tongue-in-cheek humor. But kids, charmed by the paper toys (am I dreaming? In this day and age?) may drive sales. There's also a sizable adult paperdoll-collector community out there. I should know. I used to be one of them. 

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Actually, I do have a companion children's story in the works, dealing with Sly's difficult kittenhood (the runt of the litter), explaining the circumstances that turned him into such a go-getter.

--edited by Mimi Speike on 10/9/2013, 5:41 AM--

By letting something go even if you know you can keep going, it allows you to continue to progress and learn for the next story. If you spend your whole life working on a novel and beating and hammering it until it's absolutely perfect before sending it out the door, where do you have to go from there? You'll believe you're perfect and therefore writing the next story will be a nightmare. BUT by establishing the path of progress, you can cultivate and enhance your craft, thus making the next stories you work on even better.

Hi Vince,

I haven't seen your name before. I am so curious. You've been a member for over a year, and yet you have only four posts. Are you a big-time, busy, successful author, like JoeTeeVee, who only pops in from time to time? (But when he does, he has something really interesting to say.)

--edited by Mimi Speike on 10/9/2013, 2:01 PM--

   I've always loved to write, however in my mind it wasn't a practical profession when I was younger.  Now that I've married and raised my family and I have more free time, I've returned once again to writing.  I started out on free sites just for fun.  I didn't know if my stuff would be any good but was pleasantly surprised to get reviews.  Writing on those sites helped me improve my writing skills.  After receiving a lot of reviews asking why I wasn't writing professionally, I decided to go with self publishing.   

I decided that in order for my book to have a fighting chance, I'd have to have it professionally edited. (I know my weak points)  It cost me a pretty penny, but as I said, I think it's worth it.  The book is now in the editing process.  I already have a fan base, so I know I'll get a few sales, but the important thing to me is to determine if in fact my writing is worth people spending their money.  I feel that I have put forth my best effort and now its just a matter of time to see if I'm any good.

In a past life, I composed and arranged music professionally. Music, words, it's all about conveying intent to the listener or reader. When I hear my music performed, or read my own novel, I understand exactly what I am trying to say. Does this mean I am ready to self-publish? In my opinion, no. Far from it.

With my music, I would have another conductor run my piece, using only the notations on the score to form his or her interpretation. I would say nothing. If they could get the ensemble to evoke the music's intent, meaning my intent, then I knew the music was ready to go out into public. The same goes for my writing. I post on Book Country, and I have a few beta readers. Once I have the literary thumbs up from them, meaning they "got it," then I will know it is ready to self-pub. Of course, I am hoping it will also mean the novel is at the level expected and required by a publisher.

As one publisher puts it: sometimes the author is ready, but the story is not. Don't submit until it is.