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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 51
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By now, I'm sure a lot of you are aware of Book Country's new self-publishing service for those who would rather put their work out there themselves. At a rate equal to Amazon, it's a good deal for authors, but how do you feel about it? Personally I'm unsure about the idea of suddenly mixing a WIP platform with self-pub book shopping, but I'd like to know what all of you think.
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Joined: 3/16/2011
Posts: 279
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I think it's the logical next step. Upload a WIP and workshop it as you go so once you're sure it's ready, self pub. Add an editing service and you'll have a publishing one stop shop.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 51
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Yeah, I mean looking at this a little closer, it seems as though they provide the entire kit, and then distribute it for you, which seems reasonable. What I'm wondering is this:
I upload my book and price it at, say, $10.
My cut would therefore be $7 per ebook sold.
But is that per ebook sold on BC alone? Are they taking a cut of, say, my Amazon earnings, before it's then passed on to me, i.e., taking 30% of the $7 I'd earn at Amazon?
I really like the one-stop-shop idea, and I think the distribution is great, but I'm just wondering how they make money from a novel if all the copies sell at Amazon, and none sell here.
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Joined: 4/28/2011
Posts: 60
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Read the FAQs, CY. All that info is in there, albeit with a few typos and errors of that sort. They explain it much better, but, essentially, both BC and amazon take a cut when you sell through a third party. On the upside, you don't have to individually publish to each e-book seller. They do that all for you.
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Joined: 5/12/2011
Posts: 240
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Here's a good article about it, everyone:
http://paidcontent.org/article/419-penguin-adds-self-publishing-to-writing-community-site-book-country/
My personal feeling about it is that BookCountry wasn't going to just sit here being an awesome free service for us to workshop our writing forever. What would be in that for Penguin? So this is logical. But you don't have to use the self-publishing service to benefit from the free site. I have got a lot of fabulous information and made some friends here, and hope to continue to do so in spite of not being interested in self-publishing, personally.
As trade-offs go, I think it's more than fair. As for the value-for-service in the self-publishing part of the site, it looks comparable or better than self-pub services I've seen so far. It seems on the up-and-up as these things go.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 51
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I read the FAQs, L.R., I just couldn't find what I wanted at the time.
I think it's an interesting service, and although the prices are high, what they actually do for you is pretty good. I'm just wondering what around $500 would get you somewhere else. Not as much, or less, or more?
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• Upload a WIP and workshop it as you go so once you're sure it's ready, self pub
A point to ponder: Every submission query comes from someone who feels their work is ready, yet only about one in a thousand, or more, is selected. After that selection, and in spite of professional editing and other professional services, most books aren’t notable successes. What you’re suggesting is that the writer skip the professional prep step, and the display shelf, where writers and readers can freely mingle, and simply make available what they feel is ready. Wouldn’t the logical result of that be a thousand times the number of titles available are today, with 99.9% of them work that a publisher would reject?
Add to that: Once, your work rested on the bookstore’s sales shelf for about two months, unless the book grew legs and began to leap from the shelf and into every reader’s hand. The prospective reader scanned what was available, and out of the many on the shelves made their choice. But self-published books never leave. They’re sold online, via a page that blends into the mass of other pages. And they stay there. Each year there are a million more titles available. Each year there are more hopeful people on the various writers venues and social groups trying to sell their books. Those few which are readable quickly become available for free from your friendly neighborhood pirate. Who doesn’t know someone who will cheerfully supply your Nook or Kindle with anything you care to have?
• Add an editing service
That doesn’t work. Remember, the person writing it believes it ready, and the less they know about writing the more they believe that. A real editing, of the kind a publisher will provide, is expensive because the editor must read and correct several times, then do a final careful run-through when you’ve finished the second or third correction cycle. You’re talking about a lot of money, if done right. But that’s for a generic editing. Every genre is unique, and the editor must learn the norms (usually by working in the genre). An adventure editor, for example, would have a hissy-fit on reading the average romance manuscript, and vice versa.
I’ve seen and corrected the work of a few self-publishing houses and it was obvious that they weren’t professional editors.
The sad fact is that were there a charge of even a few hundred dollars for being published most of what’s available on Amazon today would never have made it to print.
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Joined: 4/27/2011
Posts: 26
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To be fair, a WIP platform is good for a pre-sell.* It would make sense since you already have fans, followers and readers before it was sold. Self-publishing has thrived in pre-sells. Of course, social media, blogging and other pre-sell platforms had helped in the rise of self-published books. Major publishing companies use to matter, but if you had to choose between a big publisher or a pre-sold product, the logical step is to take the pre-sold product.
The (dis/)advantage of having a publisher to lean bak on is that there is more security, but it markets books by interrupting the reader. Authors can pre-sell , but a huge chunk of money is spent on the different services spent by the publisher.
Self-published books have a larger piece of income, but the author MUST know how to pre-sell. Editing and other services are important, but getting it in the hands of the reader is the priority. When authors pre-sell, the readers don't really doubt the quality way too much(the content and story needs to be of top-notch quality, but readers will be more forgiving of the design and editing) and they are ready to open their wallets for you. When authors pre-sell, they have fans who are ready to spread the word. When authors pre-sell, there is no need to get shelf space. You have people ready to buy it.
The only problem with the pre-sell is getting an audience. Unless I get fans or people to trust me, they probably won't buy my book. Traditional publishing would be better for people who aren't very social, because they don't want to build an audience. I'm honestly not very social, so traditional publishing probably works for me, but I have to say, the only books I remember that I bought because I saw it in the shelves are 48 Laws of Power and Sun Tzu Is A Sissy. I require recommendations for everything else.
Face it! We go to a book store usually to buy a specific book, unless the people who help you out in the bookstores are honest(the people in the bookstore I go to are)
Ultimately, self-publishing works best on pre-sell and Book Country is good enough to be a community where you can find an audience, because of the Reviews from the Connections and the good people on the forums.
*Pre-sell: Asks for your permission and whispers to you that the product is out.
Ads: Shouts at you and annoys you until you listen, which you will struggle to ignore.
On the shelf: Hopes that you will look, but there are tons of books screaming for your attention. Sometimes works, but friend recommendation usually drive people to a book store.
Pre-sell is basically a permission based way of selling. You get people's permission to listen to you, so when your book is out in the market, you already have a group of people who will surely buy it. You already have customers before having a product
Ads are the opposite. They are there to annoy you until you actually look at it.
A good example would be Seth Godin. He has a blog with great content daily. He has email subscribers ready to buy a book he recommends or publishes. No ads. No anything. Just a whisper that his book is out. Since he has thousands of subscribers, they know his book is out, so they buy it. Pre-sell works because the foundation is permission and word of mouth, things we trust. Ads, unfamiliar things on the shel and press conference are generally untrustworthy, because there is no proven record.
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Joined: 5/12/2011
Posts: 240
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I think it depends very much on what one likes to read and how much time one has to read it. Personally I wouldn't be forgiving of bad design or bad editing. I don't have much time to read and I am very picky about what I choose to spend my precious reading hours on. Bad design and bad editing are red flags, for me, that the writing may be bad too.
For people who have more time to read, they might be willing to experiment more. For people who have an insatiable craving for a certain genre, they may just want that story and not mind less than perfect writing or messy design and editing.
As for writers choosing self, versus traditional publishing, I think it simply depends on why you are writing and what your career goals are. None of us are likely to write the next mega blockbuster, whatever route we take. I think coming to terms with that and making decisions with that clear knowledge is key.
What I dislike is proponents of either route selling the idea that YOU (and by you, I mean anyone, generally) are going to be either the next Amanda Hocking or the next Stephanie Meyer (in terms of sales--I don't know their writing). It's like selling lottery tickets.
And just to clarify, since this was originally a thread about what Book Country is doing, I don't get that sense from them at all. They are selling something, to be sure, but it doesn't seem like they are selling pipe dreams.
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Joined: 4/27/2011
Posts: 26
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LilySea,
To be fair, I just wrote like I was on Write or Die instead of actually re-reading it, so I understand the complaint.
A business is still a business. It needs consistent cashflow. Unless, it aims to be a high value company(which I loathe, for I am a pro-bootstrapping guy). I'm not saying they are selling pipe dreams, but I think a WIP platform is good for pre-selling which works well with self-publishing. I'm not saying that Book Country is the only one I'm doing this nor it does it well. I'm just saying that WIP is a great tool for self-publishing, so it makes perfect sense to me that this is their monetization method.
Book Country seems to offer a decent service for people who self-publish, but it definitely is expensive. Editing and bad design isn't a red flag for me, because 1) a person will never be a fan if the book isn't good at all. Consumers are emotional beings, but not idiots. 2.) A good book can't be filled errors(unless it is a humor book which uses it to its advantage), because the writer knows how to write. I've seen textbooks used in schools that have editing worse than amateur novelists trying to make a name for themselves. Bad design(okay, I read design books and everyone is entitled to their own opinions of what is bad design) for a book usually has a bad information flow and not just aesthetics. A pretty door that has an unusable knob actually attracts attention due to its beauty, but leaves the user frustrated, demanding a refund for something they don't own. Besides, no one would use a random book cover without actually making sure it works well with the book. I haven't known or seen anyone who is dumb enough to not even try something decent.
Also, I have no intentions of writing a blockbuster novel. I'm aiming for a cult classic. Some of my favorite movies and books didn't really sell well at first, but they have a small group of people who still watch/read them until now unlike blockbusters which no one reads now.
In fact, more people should use the long tail if they want to stand a chance against a blockbuster novel, but I'm more of a reader than a writer.
Some people want to become bestselling authors, but most of the writers who I met at school are more interested in having it as a hobby.
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An interesting experiment: go to Lulu—one of the more honest
and respected of the POD houses—pick a genre, and then check the sales ranking of their offerings on Amazon.
Then go to a publisher’s site and do the same. A good selling LuLu offering breaks the one million from number one barrier in the good direction.
Publisher’s offerings are pre-sold by the fact of appearing in the bookstore. It says they have the recommendation of the publisher, and that they believed in it enough to spend significant cash in preparing it for the market.
• Editing and other services are important, but getting it in
the hands of the reader is the priority.
Only if you don’t mind cheating the reader. Is the object to sell copies or to please the reader? I vote for the reader.
Several times, my wife has come home from the bookstore with something an author was there pushing. She’s not gotten further then chapter three because the writing was poor and the editing nonexistent. The author was probably pleased at having sold ten copies that day. The readers? Not so much.
Self-publishing has its place but it is not a substitute for writing skill. If your work has been rejected by everyone you submit it to, with a form rejection, you need to work on your writing skills, because those people make their living by knowing what readers are seeking.
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Joined: 5/12/2011
Posts: 240
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Traditionally published books are also quite literally pre-sold, by sales reps in bookstores (my father was one for thirty years). Bookstores can return unsold copies, of course, but they buy the books before the customers do and those are sales made, most often, before the book is even out (unless it's part of a publisher's back list).
And at the sales conferences for the reps, the books are "sold" TO the reps, in the sense of persuading them to highlight certain books with book buyers in stores, or of creating expectations for what the publisher expects the sales figures for any given title to be.
There is a lot more to publishing than the average reader knows and for those who choose self-publishing, it's probably a good idea to learn what is behind the traditional route--not so much to mimic it necessarily, but to have a sense of what to expect and what not to expect, based on the differences.
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Joined: 4/27/2011
Posts: 26
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Pre-sell should be targeted at the readers. Sales reps and publishers have thousands of books to sell and their attention is limited. Based from experience, they usually pick books with proven sales records to consistently sustain cashflow.
Online retailers make use of the long tail, so there is a better chance of getting noticed. The goal of the long tail is to have everything. Traditional bookstores cannot sustain that.
Pre-selling to the reader usually works for nonfiction. One good reason is that nonfiction books are usually bought based on credibility.
The guys in 37signals are a good example. They are a great company with loyal fans. When Jason Fried and DHH wrote a book, they only had to announce it. The only marketing they did was announcing that the book was out and giving away a good portion of the book. Once I knew they were good writers, I was sold to the book.
The most important part of pre-sell is permission. It isn't about shouting for the reader's attention and forcing them to read your book, but whispering it when the book is out. The reader already trusted you before you released the book. They believed that you are a good writer. You don't force it.
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Joined: 4/3/2011
Posts: 66
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I am self published, I paid an editor and my cover art was done by a professional, (if you've watched television, or seen a billboard, you've seen his work.) I took great pains in putting out the best product I could after years (yes years) of rejections. I sell nothing, I lost more money than I made but that's okay. I give my work out for free more times than I get paid trying to get the word out. The Amazon market is awash in books and there are hundreds of threads talking about how crappy a lot of self-published authors are and how to avoid buying their books. It's not a pretty place. Once you are pitched into to self-publish bin there, you might as well hand your stuff out for free. Even with stunning reviews it's all about the big publishing houses making people's decisions for them. If your unknown, you're wasting your time. I've been doing this for years and it's a hobby and not a job.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 412
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Looking at Amazon, I see Four Fathers as an out of print, no ebook available. I see My Novel Affair for 4.99 (free to read if you have prime) in ebook format (which I'm buying next paycheck). Have you played with prices on ebooks for Affair, have you thought of making an ebook of Four Fathers?
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Joined: 3/16/2012
Posts: 5
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I plan to Indy/ePublish, but I still do want some POD copies. It looks like you have to submit before you get an estimate. Is there a ball-park rule of thumb on the cost per page of getting POD up and running?
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POD is free. You send them the file and the customers. They do no promoting, and invest nothing in your success. In return they give you a sales page to direct your customers to. No one else will know it exists because no one is searching for your name on the spine of the book.
If someone sends them the money for the book, plus shipping, they push a button, and a specialized copy machine prints the pages, glues them into the cover, which it also prints, and out it pops.
It's prettier than what you get from your local copy store. But the come from the same unedited file you supplied there. And while it reads beautifully to you, and perhaps to those who know you and how you speak, so they hear your vice as they read, to a reader who knows nothing of the story of the situation it's just another self published story by a hopeful but untrained writer.
And remember, you're going to be charging more for a copy of the book than the reader will pay for an award winning author's professionally prepared and published work.
I mean no insult, but writing for the page is a learned skill, not a talent. And those skills are very different from what we learned in our English classrooms. Talent is in the ability to use the tools of your profession creatively. But if the only tool you own is a hammer, and your goal is to to polish glass...
My personal feeling is that if someone who wants to write hasn't spent even the price of a Saturday night on the town on their writing education (well the library counts too), how can they call themselves a serious writer?
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Thought I'd chime in here about how exactly POD works and some of my own personal opinions on self-pub. =)
PODs typically aren't priced solely by cost per page, unless you are strictly binding a book from a printer, in which case, you will have the per page fee plus your binding fee, etc. You would likely use a printer or a vanity publisher if you were wanting to simply make copies for yourself and not actually sell them to the public.
Most self-publishers that offer POD options (like Book Country does) use a careful calculation to determine the manufacturing cost. Within that cost are things like binding, paper, ink, creation of the files themselves, printing time, etc. So, really, there's no general per page price. Once a manufacturing cost has been established though, PODs are priced up from there to figure out a retail price. Authors want to make a profit of course! PODs are definitely not free though. It costs money to make any product, especially one that is a physical item, and then it costs money to purchase that product.
Self-publishing isn't for everyone but some people find it incredibly useful. And in my experience, many self-pubbed authors take their work very seriously--they hire editors and copyeditors, cover designers, etc. (I have been one of those editors in a number of cases), so that they are putting out the best product they can. Being able to create a quality self-published book does not rely on your background and education. It's dependent on how much effort and work you put into the process. Writing is both a skill and a talent. You need to have both and be willing to foster both to be a good writer.
What you choose to do next once you have that finished product is up to you. =)
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The question was on getting the POD up and running, not the cost to the customer for the book. The blurb at the top of Lulu's site brags, "Publish print books and eBooks for free.
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