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Joined: 4/4/2011
Posts: 7
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I've finished a 'hard' Sci-Fi
novel which has had very positive feedback from agents but with one
constant criticism - my lead female character is too 'male' (yes I'm a guy). In
some ways it was inspired by Ripley from the Alien movie series. Ripley was
written as a male character until the director, Ridley Scott, cast Sigourney
Weaver in the role and that seemed to work out well enough 
So what are the key concepts of feminizing
a character who is a battle weary marine? (or any other character for that
matter). I'd like to avoid the usual clichés but are they clichés because they
work and are accepted?
Thanks -
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Joined: 4/30/2011
Posts: 662
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To be honest, I wouldn't know what you're lacking unless I read your novel, but I get what you're asking. If your character is a battle weary marine then I would expect her to act quite masculine. The Marines is a boys club, and will always be that way. Look at it this way. In scenes where she isn't fighting, and there is down time, does she partake in caring about her appearance? I'm not speaking of 4 hours in hair in makeup, or designer heels. I'm saying does she take time to brush her hair or clean her face? How does she cross her legs? Does she cross her legs? How does she address men of her rank and higher? Outside of habits and body language, what are her hobbies or interests? This is how you can come up with the little nuances needed to distinguish her from the danglers.
You see, its quite hard to tell what a character is lacking or may need improved upon even if I have a reference. I also admit I'm awful for this kind of information because I too act quite masculine for a girl. (My dad used to call me the son he always wanted even though I have a gear head for a brother.) You could look into the idea that girls sometimes want to be seen as girls even though they wield a big ass gun or sword. Us females want to feel pretty sometimes or want to be seen as ourselves. That includes NOT being seen as a dude. Does your character want to be recognized as woman, or disguise herself as a guy? Think about that. In the mean time, I recommend looking up a little SyFy show called Eureka. They have a chick marine called Jo I suggest looking into.
As for cliches, thats a hard one. Some of them are cliches for a reason. I love a good pair of boots, but they have to be cute.  I think that you have to be careful falling into the "I love fashion. I love boys. I love makeup," trap. Then there is the overly masculine bitch who is trying to compensate for not having balls (The Dragon Lady). Actually, I think maybe you should just sit down and let some women read your character. They'll tell you whether they think she's too dude-like or not.
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Joined: 4/4/2011
Posts: 7
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LeeAnna - this is very helpful. The opening of the book starts with an action sequence where it is a 'boys (girls) with toys' sequence but i need to build into that more characterization. I felt that when i was writing it and I guess i didnt fix it enough. I'm going to rework it, will take a few weeks but then fancy skimming the first ten pages when i'm done? Not problem if not, its a very 'blokey' book that will have a small audience - its in the genre of Alastair Reynolds and Neal Asher ...
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Joined: 4/30/2011
Posts: 662
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I can got through the first part if you like. I don't mind books that are more for the guy crowd. I usually prefer things focused toward boys instead of girls due to my romance gag reflex.
If you have time you can check out my book. I'm rewriting it, but I have female characters that slant toward the masculine in personality. Its fantasy. I don't know if you might be interested in something like that.
Glad to know I was helpful.
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Joined: 5/12/2011
Posts: 240
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Maybe she's a hot butch lesbian. I would be all over that. But it is not a widely appreciated gender, so I can see the lack of appeal. One of my characters in "Liaison" (it's up here, if you want to look) might as well be a guy (um, she's a hot butch lesbian). I have yet to have anyone tell me she isn't "female" enough. The fact is, there are all kinds of ways to be female.
I think rather than interest in appearance or whatever, which could lead you into stereotypes, going internal is what might make her more convincingly female. Battle-weary marine or not, she might be rather introspective, might have a certain level of defensiveness (if she's in the minority, gender-wise) and need to be watchful in a way a man in her position would not. This doesn't have to be explicitly spelled out as a "girl thing" but it might make her scan more "female" to your readers.
I was recently coaching a man in drag (he was doing it for a film and for the first time ever) and I told him to imagine that he was surrounded by threat. Women carry their bodies differently from men partly because of a sense of possible threat whenever we go out the door. I'm not saying women are cringing in fear all the time--there's just a subtle awareness of self and surroundings and the fact that someone might be about to holler something rude at you at any moment. It changes the way you move through the world. Similarly, it would subtly change the way a character thinks. NOT overtly. Just subconsciously.
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One problem I see is that because you don't hint at gender early (or maybe I missed it), the reader assumes the character is male. And once that happens it may be hard to change expectations.
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Joined: 3/17/2011
Posts: 88
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Well, you certainly don't make it easy on yourself when you choose to write her story in the first person! There's nowhere for you to hide, is there? But that could be a good thing, because she's likely gonna feel like she has no place to hide in the marines. So you can use your own feeling of vulnerability to get in touch with your MC's feeling vulnerable as well. The great advantage Ridley Scott had was an actual female human playing the part. You don't have that luxury.
Jay's right, you don't give us hint one that she's female until her comrade, ever so conveniently, drops her name for us. It is jarring. And too late.
Couple things jumped out at me: "Jarheads like me" is a problem. It reads VERY male to me. As a female in a presumably patriarchal culture and system, she is bound to be acutely aware that jarheads *like her* are few and far between. She is the Other in her culture. She is the Minority. She is the Marginalized. She just is. She may maintain a sunny outlook in spite of it all, but if so, it should be clear that she is doing so *in spite of it all*--y'see what I mean?
Her relationship with the men in her unit is gonna be...complicated. Women rarely have the kind of uncomplicated relationships with...pretty much anyone...that a lot of men enjoy among other men. Men can run around oblivious to their inner lives and feeling, but women kind of have to deal with themselves on a regular basis. If this future she's living in is anything like our present, she will have at least heard about fellow female marines being raped as a part of hazing, for instance. Just walk around pretending to live in a world like that for a while, Jim. LilySea has some excellent insight into the difference between female and male culture. It's hard being a marine, and it's gotta be doubly hard to be a female marine, no?
Secondly: when Suit talks to her and she says "Always the talker" you have an opportunity to hint at gender if she instead says, "Such a charmer" or perhaps, "Dear Suit, why do you always sound so sad?" It might be a fun exercise to play a game called "What Would a Guy Never Say in this Situation?" and see what comes up for you. Masculinity is a funny thing--it's generally defined by what it's not: not female, not childish. Women in their minds do not tend to have the same strictures.
It occurs to me that being alone (naked?) in Suit could be where she's most comfortable, incognito, and exactly the same on the outside as any other marine in a Suit. It could be her hideout. The one place she can be herself without having men looking at her.
Do you play video games? Do you know any women who are really good at something like HALO? They get right into the mindset but they are not men in the least.
There's no easy fix. You're just gonna have to get in touch with your feminine side on this. You ever think of maybe reading an autobiography or two of female marines? Just as I'm sure you did a ton of research to get your future tech right, you need to do your homework to get this "alien consciousness" right as well. It doesn't have to be hard. The answers you seek are out there, but you have to take the task seriously.
Best of luck to you.
-Kevin
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Joined: 5/12/2011
Posts: 240
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Here's a question for you, Jim:
Why is this character female? Why didn't you just write a man in this role?
If there's a character-based reason that you made her a woman, it might help you determine how she plays her gender. If there's no real reason she couldn't just be transformed into a man, then you may just need to...transform her into a man.
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Joined: 4/4/2011
Posts: 7
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Firstly thanks everyone for your comments. I don't get time to drop in here as much as I need and coming back to find these very helpful comments has been great.
jay - Kevin it is interesting that you both mention the 'jolt' that you receive when you realize that she is female. What I was trying (and it seems failing) to do was to leave her gender out until this point. It's always a guy in these books (hence I decided to 'go female') and I was attempting to play with the convention of gender here. Everyone assumes the MC is male because it's a soldier so having this 'shock' was an attempt to make the reader realize that there were surprises in store.
I was advised to watch the opening scene of 'Buffy The Vampire Slayer' by a friend as it does the same thing. You see a monster chasing a blond haired girl - classic horror trope - only after a few minutes to realize the girl is chasing the monster. Joss Whedon knows how to write tho ...
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Joined: 4/4/2011
Posts: 7
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Kevin - really like the idea of the Suit being the only place she is incognito, gives me a good idea for a section later.
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Joined: 4/4/2011
Posts: 7
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Hi LilySea -
I made her female for two reasons: 1. I'd finished two guy MC books and wanted to push myself on something harder 2. These books (sci-fi / military) as so male dominated in terms of character I wanted to make my book stand out by having a different MC hook ...
Also the idea of carrying yourself differently as you have to be 'watchful' is interesting when applied to someone granted such physical power through technology. Would that tip a victim (say) over the edge into a revenge cycle?
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Joined: 5/12/2011
Posts: 240
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I just realized (when reading the other comments) that we are talking about Mech, and I HAVE to say this! I LOVED being surprised that she was female. Folks above say it was a problem or a jolt and I agree it was a jolt, but not a problem at all. In fact, when I got to that point (and it was ages ago I read this, so it's meaningful that I specifically remember that moment) I grinned and felt sort of "ouch! he got me! Why was I assuming this was a guy?" and I grew more interested in the story because of it. So it worked just like you said--to draw me in and let me know that there was something more here than just another whatever whatever.
I also (now that I remember the book we're discussing) never felt that the surprise of her gender meant she wasn't "female" enough. I don't think you're necessarily doing female wrong. You are doing female in a way that challenges stereotypes and assumptions and if you go on to make that meaningful for some reason (after all, the greatness of Alien ended up being in the battling mothers theme, which would not have been there if Weaver had been a man), it could make for a really interesting story that hasn't been told yet.
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Joined: 3/17/2011
Posts: 88
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Hi Jim,
I wanna clarify that the "jolt" in my case was not an innocent one, but one primed by your innitial question about why folk are saying your character reads "too male." And as I read the opening bit of your story I noticed a couple instances that felt like they gendered your character in a masculine direction. Idealy, the intro would be entirely consistent with a female protagonist and it would be entirely the reader's prejudice at work in the misunderstanding. But if your opening is misleading or the voice is weak, then the "jolt" becomes more of a gimmick of misdirection than a moment of self-discovery for the reader.
I can see where LilySea is coming from and I'm glad it worked for her. I can certainly see it working for me if the voice felt more assured to me to start. I'd rather feel the writer had a firm grasp of the character than to be reminded that I tend to expect the protagonist of a hard sci-fi story to either be male, or to be one of those "sci-fi females" that's nothing more than a tough-talkin' dude in the body of a hot chick.
-Kevin
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Joined: 4/4/2011
Posts: 7
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Hi everyone, using this conversation as a base I tweaked the opening chapters of Mech - have a look and let me know what you think (if you want )
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Joined: 5/12/2011
Posts: 240
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That is a really nuanced and thoughtful description, CatchCan. It rings true to what I hear from women I know in the military, too. It is so interesting to see how the service changes and grows -- I think, stronger -- with the social changes it experiences. Racial integration, women in combat, now openly serving gays and lesbians--all really make for a rich and fascinating military culture. It also seems like one of the most honest corners of our culture, where people just lay it on the table for better or worse and work with what they have--esp. now that DADT is over.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 102
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Not having read your story, I think the answer you're looking for can be found within the answers to questions about your reader - who is your target reader? What is his/her expectation of your character? Why does your lead character have to be a woman. What do you need her to accomplish that a male lead cannot?
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