Hi,

I am considering joining the bookcountry.com in order to workshop my manuscripts. I've used other online sites, but most have not really met up to their expectations. Question I like to ask the community is; is this site worth putting up the manuscript in order to get workshopped?

I am debating between here and one other, but this one is free.

Steve

With all due respect, is that the right question to be asking?

If you merely want other people to look at your work and spend their time giving you helpful advice workshopping your book, then you should have to pay for it.

On the other hand, if you want to join an online community of aspiring writers, some closer to publishing than others, prepared to give of your time helping them to write better and in so doing, probably gain as much insight from that process, if not more, than from the reviews you will also undoubtedly get, then you've come to the right place. You didn't say which genre you are writing for. There are some forums with a focus on a particular genre which might be of added help.

Otherwise there are subscription sites who promise a lot but don't always deliver, and there are plenty of editorial businesses out there, mine included, who will give you a thorough professional critique of the highest standard, for a fee. And you won't have to lift a finger other than to write a cheque.

You pays your money, and makes your choice.

D'Estaing

www.editorial.ie

I've noticed the same thing, T.W.

I joined back in 2014. In that time, I've written roughly 90 reviews for the site. Out of those 90, only about 30 have been returned. And as you, some are from repeat reviewers. So that means about only a quarter of the reviews I gave were reciprocated back to me. Book Country lacks a true system to get people reviewing, I've noticed. Some people plop their books onsite and then disappear. Now, almost all the 30 reviews have been helpful, and I appreciate them immensely, but to work so hard and only get a small percentage of thanks and reciprocation . . .

It gets discouraging.

I love Book Country. Without it, I probably would have given up on writing a long time ago. But I really want to see it improve its review/receive system.

Amber

I think the best way to go is to broker a review, trade reviews. I don't review much at the moment, I was more active in the past. But I am working on four books at once (three will be illustrated) and I am emotionally worn out. I will try to do better. 

Love your honesty - “It's discouraging to think how many people are shocked by honesty and how few by deceit.” 

I am a new member

I shall read yours

I do not shop the genre map. I don't think I've ever been on there. I review after connecting with a writer in these forums, and finding something they've said about writing, or said about their plot, intentions, whatever, intriguing. There's a real plus to that, you review the work of someone active, not one of the many who have come and gone. 

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If you post your work, and wait to be discovered, you may wait forever. Make a racket! When I first came on here, I made an ass of myself in the discussions (still do, on a regular basis) and I had something like six reviews inside of two-three weeks. It works!

I've made this offer in a couple of places, but no one's seeing it. Here it is again: Review either my Yo Ho! or my Sly - the Novella (no final title yet) and I guarantee to review whatso you name.

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Yo Ho is comic verse, it tells a story, the story is expanded with footnotes, and the whole business is something south of three thousand words. The Novella is around thirty thousand words, also a piece of humor, also with comic footnotes (think of it as a smart-mouthed annotated semi-historical screwball fantasy) and I am the ultimate Intrusive Author, butting in to set the record straight when my critters (and I do mean critters) try to get away with something.

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Want a review? Let's make a deal! I review all genres. I advise you to do the same. (I would call my genre 'Wise-ass animals in pants'.) There are lessons on craft to be learned from every piece. I cheerfully admit that the dragons/wizards variety of fantasy is not my thing, but I learn a lot in trying to explain my reactions.  

--edited by Mimi Speike on 1/26/2016, 10:18 AM--

Hmmm. Interesting. This confirms my impression that traffic on this site has slowed way down. Well, we've always had our ups and down. 

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Let my add to my description above: I would call my genre 'Wise-ass animals in pants for adults,' if that makes any kind of difference, in case you're thinking, Oh God! Chatty animals for the kiddie market. 

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And, there's not a dragon (with the possible exception of Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester), nor a wizard (with the possible exception of my MC, Sly) in sight. But Sly's wizardry consists of a bit of talent and high expectations of himself. I carefully explain my cat's journey toward human-speech, (as with a toddler, understandable once you get used to it). This is not magic here. You want elves and fairies, look elsewhere.

Are you dubious about the (whacko) history here? Well, I work it, I admit it. The intrigue of the Elizabethan court was more fun than a barrel of monkeys. And, yes, I've got a monkey here, Sha-Sha, Elizabeth's beloved pet, whom Sly falls in love with, with disastrous results. My history is all for fun. If you learn something from it, I am truly sorry. 

--edited by Mimi Speike on 1/28/2016, 2:49 PM--

Fair warning: that incident happens in book two. First I have to get Sly to England. 

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In book one, he scrambles through a pirate episode and a circus episode, then, teamed up with John Dee, the Royal Astrologer who scholars of the period tell us may have worked undercover for Francis Walsingham. (Guess what? They're right.) Together they foil an assassination plot against Elizabeth. Taken to court  by Dee, he meets a critter his own size, dressed to the nines in high style, and falls hard for her. She's a wild one, swinging naked from the chandeliers after she's had too much wine. She's the closest he can get to a human female. (He doesn't find female cats intellectually compatible at all.) She's no brain either but, well schooled in duplicity, having been raised by the foremost practitioner of the art of the period, she puts on a damn good show, and he is pathetically eager to believe. It ends in heartbreak, how can it not? Sha-Sha has eyes for no one but Robert Dudley. Sly's been taken for a ride but, in the end, he profits off it handsomely.

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I have large portions of book two written, I've written episodes piecemeal over the course of - Christ! - thirty years. I'm out of my mind, everyone who knows me knows it.

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While you (any and all of you) wait for Sha-Sha to bound onto my stage and wiggle her butt in Sly's face, why not take a look at 'Sly - The Novella' (no title yet), the opener of a three-book series. You'll either adore it or never read another thing I've written. 

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I've long said that I intend to be the Amanda McKittrick-Ros of the twenty-first century. I figure I'm off to an excellent start.

--edited by Mimi Speike on 1/28/2016, 10:56 PM--

I'll probably still be writing this thing the day I die. If I haven't given up on it by now (just check out some of my reviews), I'm never giving up on it. The guy who told me I'm no Jane Austen, that's a classic. I've got all my reviews saved in a word file. Maybe I'll publish them (sans attribution, relax) as back matter in my novel. They are a ton of fun, some of them.

--edited by Mimi Speike on 1/29/2016, 8:20 AM--

"I intend to be the Amanda McKittrick-Ros of the twenty-first century"

Her wikipedia entry: "Ros believed that her critics lacked sufficient intellect to appreciate her talent"

Oh dear. Say it ain't so Mimi.

Lord, no. McKittrick-Ros thought she was creating important work. I write intricate Animals-in-Pants nonsense, a touch political, a touch philosophical. I know damn well it has very limited appeal. I may make a joke of it but, honestly, I don't fault anyone for failing to adore it.

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I identify with the McK-R on the basis of her silly, unshakable faith in her stories, that they were serious art. Instead, her off-the-wall production was ridiculed (rightly so).  The southern necessary? It takes a certain kind of genius to come up with that. It ain't easy. I've tried. For that ability, a hundred years later the woman is read, by a few, as a curiosity.  

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To be read by a few, a curiosity, would please me greatly. Hell, I can’t even get my brother and sister to read my stuff. My husband loves it all. He's a highly educated man, but his passion is for mathematics, and English is not his first language, so I take his opinion with a grain of salt.

--edited by Mimi Speike on 1/30/2016, 12:48 PM--

Amber--

I agree with you! I've only just joined Bookcountry in mid January, and have written four reviews, of two partial books and two complete drafts, so far. But as I scroll through the list of posted manuscripts, I see that most of them have not been reviewed by anyone, some after sitting here for years! It's great to have so much posted material, but if most people are posting to receive and have no interest in giving, the site is not going to be very useful for most of us.

Membership is free, but I think it should come with a bit more responsibility than writing just one review. Perhaps any member who posts a manuscript should be required to write one review a month, or maybe one every three months, to keep their MS available for review.

Bookcountry is a great idea and could definitely be an invaluable site for writers with works in progress, but ongoing member participation, even on a limited basis, should be encouraged in a much stronger way.

--David

Dalton, how do you select a book to review? Do you go straight to the genre map or do you meet and talk to someone in the discussions? I believe that is the best way to go about it. There is natural attrition on these sites. Many folks may be long gone. I see that of the four reviews you've given, three have no comments in return, not even a thank you. This, to me, is a sign that the writers are not often on here, perhaps a bad bet for a reciprocal review. 

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I am really curious how we go about choosing a book to review. I know how I do it. I respond to an entry in the chat, general comments that intrigue me, or a frank request. If I don't find you in the forums I will never find you. I do not look at the genre map. I look for an interesting voice in the discussions.

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Aha! I just noticed that you have only one posted comment. I suppose it is the one directly above. No wonder I don't recall your name. This is not the way to generate interest in yourself and your project. 

--edited by Mimi Speike on 2/1/2016, 1:49 PM--

Amber, you have a different problem. You chat up a storm, and we are lucky to have you. You have given a ton of reviews, ditto. I have seen you anguish that no one reviews you, but I also see that you have upward of thirty reviews on your drafts, some kind of record, I'm sure.

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I have given you two reviews, with essentially the same input: I cannot find my footing in your world. I need more setting.  I would like more wide-lens. Bear in mind that I am a nut for world-building. LOTR aside, fantasy readers may prefer your method of storytelling to mine. Having read no (published) epic fantasy other than LOTR (that I can recall at the moment), I can't say.

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I make a point of creating a rhythm, small, big, in, out. I get too much big in, probably. Five chapters along, I expect to understand a world from many angles, although there may be (and should be) surprises in store. But you are the epic-fantasy lover. It's up to you to decide what will please your target audience. From thirty reviews you should have assembled a solid group of signposts to navigate by and be finally (mostly) on your own, trusting far more than you seem to in your own judgment. 

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You have to get to that point. There will always be con opinions on your book. I follow a half-dozen things on Amazon that I've read and reviewed on another site. They all have five stars and they all have one star. Here's the interesting thing: for the one or two that I really dislike, my reasons are completely different from the Amazon comments. We readers don't even agree on the why. Read the most successful fantasy, study it, then try to use your favorites as a template. That's the best I can think to tell you.

--edited by Mimi Speike on 2/1/2016, 4:31 PM--

Mimi--

I choose books to read based on what sounds interesting to me. I just run through the list of books under the Find Manuscripts link on the read and review tab and check out the ones I think I might like, sort of like browsing book shelves at the store. I do sort by genre as I’m not at all interested in certain genres, e.g.,  sci-fi and fantasy.

Other than the four reviews I posted I’ve started several other MSs that were either so poorly written or just so not my cup of tea that I gave up on them quickly without reviewing. I don’t see the point in reviewing something I don’t like since, as you also say above, most published books get both 5 stars and 1 star in reader reviews. I don’t want to judge a book’s storyline based on my own preferences, and I don’t want to spend time reading and reviewing a story or genre I’m not interested in as that might negatively affect my judgment of some of the feedback criteria, which I think would be unfair.

Your comment above from 1/25 at 8:58 about making some noise in the discussions prompted me to respond to Amber. As I mentioned then, I’ve been a member for only two or three weeks, and I’ve been checking out the books rather than the discussions. Now that I’m looking at these, I’ll take your advice and try to contribute to these discussions regularly, so you should hear more from me.

Thanks for your response.

--David

--edited by Dalton on 2/1/2016, 11:57 PM--

First, hi Dalton! Welcome to Book Country

@Mimi: I am very grateful for the 30--now 33--reviews I've gotten on my story. I didn't mean to sound like that many isn't enough or that they weren't immensely helpful to me. I was just comparing the average of give-take I receive from reviewing. I review 90, I get 30. That's what I was getting at--Book Country could benefit from a more immersive give/take system, to entice people to review more.

Some sites have a 'karma' system in place, where you have to review in order to upload your own writing. Or reputation points so you can feel accomplished and people can see you're active. On Book Country, people review once to upload their story, then they usually disappear and leave their manuscript languishing. They don't network and build reading/reviewing partners.

And I've been working on becoming more confident in myself and my writing. I'm a shy, timid person in real life, so it's been a struggle, but I feel I'm getting better, little by little. I still have a ways to go, but I'm trying. I think that counts for something

Dalton, I'm glad you're getting in the swing of things. In the last two weeks I have posted in a couple of places, Review _______ and I guarantee to review you. I have gotten two excellent reviews, everything I could wish for, very thoughtful and very helpful. 

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I immediately looked for what one man has up. He has not posted yet, but I'm going to keep my eye on him. The other person, I gave my preliminary reaction in a PM, because I didn't want to formally review until I could give her a truly fair shake. And in order to do so, I believe I have to read the prequel to her posted work. I just bought it on Amazon and I will give an in-depth review after I've read it. I didn't want to give a so-so rating if I could avoid it.

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Amber, I understand that your reviews are not being returned, but are you sure the people are still active on the site? Try my way: Announce, read my blah blah blah and I promise to review anything you name. It worked like a charm for me. 

Hi, Amber--

To my thinking, 30 for 90 is a great average! I hope I do nearly as well. As you point out, many people seem to post MSs and disappear. If I review their work, they may not even come back to know they've been reviewed.

I haven't gone through the whole site yet, so I haven't figured out how to tell how active someone is, though I'm sure there's an easy way. Since the whole idea here seems to be to provide critical feedback, it seems a bit pointless to read an abandoned MS and put effort into a review that the author will never see. That might be what happened in your case, and why many of your reviews were never reciprocated.

On the other hand, I haven't looked at your work (though I definitely will now), but it's possible that some members whose work you've read aren't interested in the areas in which you write. For example, although Sci-Fi and fantasy are huge these days, I don't have an interest in them, and probably wouldn't want to read a full-length manuscript in those genres. (Although Mimi, if you're reading this, I don't at all mind adult-level animals in pants. I have one of my own in 1st draft form; maybe I'll give it an edit and post it down the road.) The MSs might be brilliant, but I'm just not interested. A fault of mine, admittedly, but there it is. Just mentioning it as a possible source of the imbalance in your ratio of reviews.

--edited by Dalton on 2/2/2016, 9:24 AM--

Hey, Amber--

I just looked at your posts and see that they're short and very short. I'll give them a read in the next few days and give you feedback. Give me a week or so, and if you don't see anything, please feel free to give me a prod.

I don't expect reciprocation as mine is not in your genre and is full length, so will take a much higher level of commitment. if you want to read a few chapters and respond, that'll be fine. But let me go first (I'd feel guilty in lowering your average).

Dalton, I will start reading your ms this afternoon, and aim to read at least half of it over a few days. 

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My novella is thirty thousand words, and quite involved. Some people love it (see my latest review) and some despise it. My first reviews of four years ago (on A Rogue Reconsidered, the same piece in its original form, with extra material that will be present in the full book one) drew  some comments like "I can't take any more of this. I didn't know I was going to be plunged into a history class." But it's fun history, of a topsy-turvy sixteenth century, so I don't get that at all.

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If you find it too much for you, try either of my short verse pieces. Sly - the Poem and Yo Ho are narrative verse, each around fifteen hundred words with another thousand words of screwball footnotes. Footnotes are my newest toy. 

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Well! This is working swell, ain't it?

--edited by Mimi Speike on 2/2/2016, 10:50 AM--

Mimi--

Thanks for giving Livin' 'Til a try. if you don't mind, I'm going read the Sly poem first to get a feel for what you do, then the novella, but promise to read both in short order.

_________________________________

That's very nice of you, Dalton. I'll keep an eye out for the review

I'm going to send you a Connection Request, so we can communicate via Private Message. And I'll be glad to read a few chapters of your story. It might not be my genre (just like my genre isn't a favorite of yours, being fantasy) but I'll give the best feedback I can.

And the reviews I gave were for people who were, at the time, semi-active in reviewing on the site. I always check profile pages and their written review list to see when the last time they reviewed was

Amber