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Interstellar: Fact or Science Fiction
Zach Heher
Posted: Sunday, November 9, 2014 10:56 PM
Christopher Nolan's new film Interstellar has hit theaters and it is an experience that is literally out of this world. Matthew McConaughey leads a expedition to find a new home for a dying and agrarian society earth. To due so, they must use interstellar space travel with a wormhole spotted in Saturn's orbit. Now let me just say that not too long ago I saw the movie and I thought the movie was great. The film kind of reminds me of 2001: A Space Odyssey with the visuals and space travel. What really fascinated me about this film was all the talk about interstellar travel, wormholes, black holes, and theory of relativity. 

Though this topic isn't meant to be a review of the movie. The movie seems to heavily rely on science and the possibility of certain things happening in the film. The question here is: Is it interstellar travel a possibility? Can we humans build spaceships that will allow us to populate on foreign planets? Can we also bypass time dilation in a way so interstellar travel does not affect the relativity of time?
GD Deckard
Posted: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 5:21 PM
Joined: 7/23/2014
Posts: 159


Theories abound & math suggests, but based on what we actually know now, nope, can't exceed the speed of light. Do we have any evidence that anything has ever exceeded the speed of light? <-- That's a real question.

Anybody know of real evidence that the speed of light has ever actually been exceeded?


Carl E. Reed
Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 1:15 AM
Joined: 4/27/2011
Posts: 608


In this universe, nothing moves faster than the speed of light. (Unless you're talking about poorly-understood effects at the quantum level.)

 

As for neutrinos moving faster than the speed of light: err, no. They oscillate and shape-shift and move almost at the speed of light--but never quite get there. (They can penetrate the Earth like a red-hot micro-bullet through butter, however, which I find fascinating enough.)

 

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21899-neutrinos-dont-outpace-light-but-they-do-shapeshift.html#.VGL2gjTF_6M 

 

There is a bizarre quantum effect which Einstein called "spooky action at a distance"--the seemingly instantaneous interaction of entangled particles (photons) which Chinese scientists have measured as occurring at 10,000 times the speed of light. Again, a phenomenon which is poorly understood at present.

 

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/150207-chinese-physicists-measure-speed-of-einsteins-spooky-action-at-a-distance-at-least-10000-times-faster-than-light 

 

Everything else: science fiction.

 

But consider this: at its most basic level, reality is order emerging from virtual particles popping in and out of existence. Ponder that for a while . . .

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-blake/top-10-physics-findings-that-will-tangle-your-brain_b_5022866.html 

--edited by Carl E. Reed on 11/12/2014, 1:40 AM--


GD Deckard
Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 9:08 AM
Joined: 7/23/2014
Posts: 159


YAY Carl! Common sense and hope.


"In this universe, nothing moves faster than the speed of light."

&

"But consider this: at its most basic level, reality is order emerging from virtual particles popping in and out of existence. Ponder that for a while . . .


Wait! That explains it! I've always thought of it as the universe hiccupping. You know, you do something and then everything says no, you did not? You lay something down and abruptly it's not there? You briefly remember something and then the memory fades and things are not the way you thought they were a moment ago? Well, the universe hiccupped and reality changed.


Besides, only the hidebound believe our present universe is explainable by laws that flow immutably from its origin to the present. To quote from my own book, The Phoenix Diary, (why not biggrin)


“The consequences of the Big Bang should have flowed like rows of falling dominoes; the physical universe should be predictable. But it ain’t, because intelligent life forms are messing with it.”

 – Ambrose Phoenix



Carl E. Reed
Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 5:05 PM
Joined: 4/27/2011
Posts: 608


Quantum foam: Turns out the "bedrock of existence" is a now-you-see-'em, now-you-don't fizzing pop-corked champagne fountain of effervescent indeterminacy and flashing split-second particles. From this Alice-in-Wonderland frothing: a universe.

 

--edited by Carl E. Reed on 11/12/2014, 5:09 PM--


GD Deckard
Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 9:03 PM
Joined: 7/23/2014
Posts: 159


I should warn you, Zach. Carl sometimes thinks ...um ...differently.
Jay Greenstein
Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 10:43 PM

Given the size of the universe, and the age, if it was possible it would have been discovered long ago by someone, who, if exploration is actually practical, would have increased geometrically in population. So we would know about them if only by the radio signals that would be flying every which way. But they're not. The SETI project has been looking for stray signals for years and has found nothing.

 

Look at it another way. Why would anyone fund such an operation? Governments have no real desire or need, given that any colony they would establish would become self-sufficient and tell the home world to go to hell. So it would be an investment with no return. Exploration here advances science, and that pays dividends. But exploring another planet, aside from being expensive, wouldn't pay back the investment.

 

And industry has no promise of a ROI that would make funding such an operation viable from a bookkeeping POV.

 

And interstellar trade is absurd. The cost of transport would exceed the cost of making it locally. Add in the fact that a returning explorer could well bring back a dozen things worse than ebola, per trip, and it stops looking all that attractive, other than in story.

 

And that's from someone who writes sci-fi, and loves reading it.


Carl E. Reed
Posted: Thursday, November 13, 2014 2:23 AM
Joined: 4/27/2011
Posts: 608


@Jay: All excellent points. Moreover, there is a growing body of evidence and emerging consensus of scientific thought that given the known age of the universe (fairly young) and the regularity with which gamma-ray bursts, supernovas and other cosmic disasters strike that any scientifically-advanced alien civilization may have been wiped out long before it had a chance to reach stage II or III. Leastwise, any scientifically-advanced alien civilization in our particular corner of the cosmos. 

 

I was reading a rather extensively documented and persuasively-reasoned article this month in a science mag currently out on the stands (sorry; don't recall the exact title of the magazine) which set forth a fairly convincing, if oddly depressing, argument to just this point.

 

A brief, similar example found online: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Alien-Life-May-Have-Been-Wiped-Out-by-Explosions-217136.shtml

 

--edited by Carl E. Reed on 11/14/2014, 2:16 AM--


GD Deckard
Posted: Thursday, November 13, 2014 5:12 PM
Joined: 7/23/2014
Posts: 159


Despite the obvious risks of predicting alien behavior as humanly motivated and the possible pitfalls in assuming we know enough about physics to absolutely rule out any way of getting around the speed of light limit, we can, perhaps meretriciously, unequivocally state that there are no interstellar travelers.
Jay Greenstein
Posted: Thursday, November 13, 2014 9:08 PM
GD Deckard wrote:
Despite the obvious risks of predicting alien behavior as humanly motivated and the possible pitfalls in assuming we know enough about physics to absolutely rule out any way of getting around the speed of light limit, we can, perhaps meretriciously, unequivocally state that there are no interstellar travelers.
 - - - - - - -

Well, people also provided unequivocal proof that a bee can't fly because it's wing area is too small. So while I'm strongly in the "hell no," camp, I also recognize that a sincere belief in anything has nothing to do with it being an accurate belief—and that not all that long ago the definition of computer was, "one who computes."

 

And I'm not really one to talk, because one of my novels details aliens arriving in space-going office building.


GD Deckard
Posted: Thursday, November 13, 2014 9:27 PM
Joined: 7/23/2014
Posts: 159


Jay Greenstein wrote

"...one of my novels details aliens arriving in space-going office building."


That image'll turn Carl's mind to Quantum Foam.

Made me flash on Monty Python's Accountancy Shanty!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YUiBBltOg4

That's great, Jay. biggrin

 

--edited by GD Deckard on 11/13/2014, 9:38 PM--


Carl E. Reed
Posted: Tuesday, December 9, 2014 9:41 PM
Joined: 4/27/2011
Posts: 608


Link to online article re: gamma ray bursts might be the reason for no advanced alien civs: http://news.yahoo.com/did-deadly-gamma-ray-burst-cause-mass-extinction-132803314.html

--edited by Carl E. Reed on 12/9/2014, 9:42 PM--


Zach Heher
Posted: Tuesday, December 9, 2014 11:51 PM
Pretty cool article Carl. This could explain the Ordovician-Silurian extinction event. Nice.
GD Deckard
Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 9:43 AM
Joined: 7/23/2014
Posts: 159


Fermi vs William of Occam

 Well, that article explains alot. I believed Douglas Adams when he told me that all intergalactic maps showed big red "X"s around Earth to ward off interstellar travelers. But now, I find it's the Fermi Paradox, or, the contradiction between our belief in extra terrestrial travelers and the lack of evidence for such a belief. 'Course, back when I was a high schooler learning about empirical science we didn't have Fermi to give us a paradox. But we did have that Franciscan rascal Occam to offer an explanation:

Occam's razor "states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Other, more complicated solutions may ultimately prove correct, but - in the absence of certainty - the fewer assumptions that are made, the better." [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor]

Simply put, there is no evidence of interstellar travelers because there ain't any interstellar travelers.

 

Thanks for kick-starting this discussion, Carl biggrin It goes to the deeper questions of what we believe and why.


ChuckB
Posted: Thursday, December 18, 2014 5:42 PM
Joined: 7/18/2014
Posts: 121


Everything is relative.....time, space, all of it.

 

I once tried a science fiction novel. It never got past 4 or 5 pages because I just can't write them.

 

It began with someone looking at a slide in a microscope. Our entire universe was the specimen or blob on the slide. I don't recall where I planned to take it.

--edited by ChuckB on 12/18/2014, 5:43 PM--


GD Deckard
Posted: Saturday, December 20, 2014 11:53 AM
Joined: 7/23/2014
Posts: 159


Great start, ChuckB

"It began with someone looking at a slide in a microscope. Our entire universe was the specimen or blob on the slide."

 

Lessee... how could we develop that?

Maybe... the someone looking is a god & the blob is a virus? OMG we're replicating through the multi-verse, destroying all others!

Or... the dog licks the slide and we're heading down the colon to become -er, no. I don't like where that's going.

How about... the blob signals the observer, who tells his coworkers who have him locked up. Make the story a parable about the foibles of logical behavior.

 

Any other ideas? Anybody?


Elizabeth Moon
Posted: Sunday, December 28, 2014 11:26 PM
Joined: 6/14/2012
Posts: 194


The universe has a way of throwing us curves--about the time someone (scientist, preacher, whoever) lays down the law about something, contrary evidence starts showing up.   Decades back, I read an article by Dirac in NATURE--naturally can't recall the year, but I do recall the article because it was hovering at the then-margin of my ability to comprehend the math in it--dealing with what later became some of the quantum issues mentioned here.   And a friend of mine, a former astrophysicist once told me that in his opinion, there were escape holes in the theory that FTL was impossible.  Maybeso, maybe not.  

 

But from the point of view of a writer, science fiction isn't just stories limited to what is possible or theoretically possible according to science.  Some of what we write may turn out to be absolutely impossible forever...and some may turn out to be possible at some future time (past our own lifetime)...and some may be technically possible, but politically impossible, or economically impossible. 

 

 


Carl E. Reed
Posted: Monday, December 29, 2014 9:16 AM
Joined: 4/27/2011
Posts: 608


@Elizabeth Moon: I agree. The terrifying regularity with which planet-sterilizing gamma ray bursts sweep the known universe is but one notable fact amongst the myriad-millions known to our race. I never meant to posit this phenomenon as a final answer to the question of whether or not other intelligent life exists in the cosmos; merely to bring this latest finding to the attention of those considering the question.

 

You are also quite right that the writer of science fiction is free to incorporate this latest finding into their work or ignore it as they wish. For my part, I find the knowledge that such events occur with clockwork regularity a sobering thought indeed. Upon reading the article I reflected: How astonishing, poignant and paradigm-shifting a finding it would be to learn with definitive certitude that we are all alone in this particular corner of the cosmos, the human race the only intelligent species on the scene. (Though others may arrive/evolve later.) 

 

What if the role of the noble, galaxy-trotting alien culture bringing the benefits of advanced scientific knowledge to others falls to us

 

 

--edited by Carl E. Reed on 12/29/2014, 10:33 AM--


GD Deckard
Posted: Monday, December 29, 2014 11:18 AM
Joined: 7/23/2014
Posts: 159


Thanks Elizabeth. As usual, you are spot on.

 

One thing that strikes me about this discussion is the purely science centricity. I am (we are) part of this equation and the deeper question might be how would we know whether or not the universe allows FTL travel? I've yet to be convinced that the sum total of the universe(s) is scientifically provable. So while I prefer hard sci-fi, I'm happy to admit that fantasy may hold some answers.