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Yes, the title is a shout out to the philosophy of the Rolling Stones, "you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you just might find, you get what you need." The question is how do you know what your character wants, and to what extent to you give them what they need?
I'm referring to their overall goals and desires here. I'm trying to figure out to what extent I should give my characters the things they have been fighting for throughout the story. Sometimes these desires may change, but ultimately in the end, when they are standing there with their hands held out as you wait in line for gift wrap at the department store, what is it exactly you are packing in their present?
Is it a fire breathing dragon ready to pop out like a jack-in-the-box and incinerate them as you laugh, muahaha you will perish and die! Too bad, sorry, the end.
Or, will it be a chocolate milkshake when your character asked for vanilla? Still a milkshake, but not exactly what he/she ordered.
Or, will the box open and explode like a party popper showering your characters with confetti as trumpets blare celebrating their triumphs? Yay for happiness and skipping off into the sunset!
How do you decide? And, why?
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Joined: 5/27/2013
Posts: 108
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Nice thread, and many of arguments, well debates, can come from this. So let me be the first to weigh in.
I struggle with the same problem with my characters. I have already given one of them immense power, almost at the start, but I balanced this by taking away his desire to want all that it entails. Thus keeping the struggle alive with that aspect of the story line.
The main character has the power, but isn't aware of it or how to use it. So really I can just put the ball back in his court, so to speak, when he screams out for those gifts. Of course, the one thing he will want, I intend to hold out on for the sake of the story. I will have to figure out the epic way to continue once he gets it.
I think for me, the thoughts are mainly how will the story suffer, or continue, once they get what they want? Can I go on from here if I surrender and give it too early? And mainly, how will the character act once they achieve whatever it is they are searching for?
I have the general outline of what I want, but I love the exploration of how things unfold. I have even had to consider taking something to balance what was given. It is the fun part, playing "god" if you will.
The easiest thing I use, is not only the weight of responsibility that comes with most "gifts", but I also get the fun of making those things not tip the scales. So if one character gets a mighty battle-axe that slays giants, then I can introduce a dragon that it doesn't work on. New threats, and challenges, are the best for changing their desires. Just never give in without extracting a toll. The constant need of the characters is the space we get to thrust in our stories, and that struggle to obtain whatever it is, is the vehicle by which the reader is drawn in. You cannot take away the quest for things, or the story ends. And by altering things around the character, you can change their wants at your whim.
The power of the story comes not from what the characters have, or don't have, it is whether the struggle for something is there and believable for the reader. And for fantasy at least, nothing is impossible, (especially with magic), but to hold the balance the reader will want to see come to a conclusion. If the story hinges on the main character finding a sword, then that has to wait till the end. But you can make having the sword a huge problem for the character, and now the story continues.
And as you can see by my long winded answer, you can just go on and on. Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series does this well. He went nine huge books, then wrote five more later for a total of fourteen novels based around four characters he introduced in the first thirty pages of the first novel. It can be done. (Sorry if I didn't mention other authors, but I am rereading Robert Jordan at the moment...I missed the five new novels.)
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I like your long winded answer. I remember in another post, you said you were inclined to ramble as I do. I like these questions: "Can I go on from here if I surrender and give it too early?" "How will the character act once they achieve whatever it is they are searching for?" These seem like great questions to ask during the writing process when figuring out when to give into your character's desires.
Love the point you made with the sword! Once the character obtains what they want, it might become a problem and the story can continue beyond the achievement of their goal. Seems like a great way to develop a series. Wow, very insightful  Also, great example with the battle-ax and the dragon. This is a good point. No character or weapon is invincible.
I'm still left with the question on whether the character should obtain the sword at all. My question doesn't pertain to the overall goal of my characters. I have several characters with similar goals with different motivations, and various subplots along the way. One of the subplots is a forbidden love scenario, and I'm wondering whether I should let the two be together in the end or kill one of them while saving the other in the final epic battle. It involves a major character and a secondary character (and I create my secondary characters with lots of depth, so we do get to care for them), so I wonder if that would weigh into the decision. I don't know. I just don't know! LOL It's a three part series at the moment, and I have all the scenes fleshed out, the first book almost complete, so I'm not to this scene yet, but I like knowing the ending, so I can develop the prior scenes accordingly.
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Joined: 5/27/2013
Posts: 108
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Perfect, I too am having some similar scenarios play out in my book. The love interest is a demi-goddess and a mortal. We all know this is forbidden, but do I need to make it so? Do I follow the norm here? I really am torn. As it is, I have created the possibility, but I am not sure that I will follow through. And killing off the character seems harsh, for me. As you can tell by my long answers, almost all my characters have to have depth. Killing one would open the door for the revenge aspect, but could the character go on with his/her love gone? Is the character's will enough that he could go on, or would they lay down and die from the pain? (Interesting way to give a character a break?) Here is the part you should ask yourself then, "Does allowing the love to happen add to the story, take away from it, or makes no difference?" If the later two, then I guess the decision is made, no? Sometimes having that "tension" will add more to the story, and if it isn't a huge focal point, then the reader will not notice that you never resolve it. (Characters can hope you change your mind in the sequel)
There are so many twists I can see this story taking just from what you have said. So don't hinder the process. I constantly have to tell my committee, "Hush, all in good time." I mean, you could have one of the other characters kidnap the love interest, making it impossible to happen. Then the main character's reason for thwarting the other is increased. End with the hero succeeding, but not freeing his love. One gets the girl, the other gets the fame. (Save you from killing a creation and leave another quest line open to explore) Or the main could realize he/she cannot achieve the main goal and have the love, so they must decide. (Another plot twist) Or have the secondary character fall for someone else, creating a love triangle. (Everyone swoons for a love triangle)
I mean, I could go on. The point really is to explore the plot. Insert your will and what you think makes the read the most interesting. (Or ask the boyfriend, I am already fond of his opinion since you have thrown him out in other posts. LOL) I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, a "romance" writing person. Yet I now have a love twist, actually two, that I have no idea what they are going to be for. (They were never in the main outline, not even a hint of them) That is the thrill of writing. They may never be more than a passing footnote, as they will not add immensely to the story. And the characters may overthrow this and use their veto power. (In which case I may come knocking for some love script to steal)
Things can happen in the story that you do not need to carry throughout. If the hero is questing for gold, he/she may not be sidetracked for love, no matter how compelling. So the fling happens, and the story goes on. Not everything, in my humble opinion, needs to be resolved. If there are open threads that need resolving, you have another chance for a whole new book. So long as it doesn't interfere with the overall story you started to tell your reader.
I promise I will read some of what you posted, I like the reading here more than I like to write...go figure. (Hence the slackers stuff) It will be a minute as me and the wife are vacationing and renewing vows. But I leave you with this for now...."Does it have to be solved at this point?" If not, let the story take you, and the reader, where it will. You may find your character wants the sword more than the girl? Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. (Not a good quote, I stole it and probably butchered it) Meant that to say, what they get may change them in a way that alters the course of the book. Say they get the love, but their personality makes them give up the quest and settle down for love and children. Now what do you do? And if they wouldn't settle down for love until the quest is done, then they get no love. The interest of the character may take a huge turn later that makes you go, "Oh shit, now what?" Then you may have to kill more people. So unless you are into killing your creations, let the characters flush themselves out. And never, I mean never, give them what they want till you are ready. (Tension is what drives a reader onward, not the characters) All the gods withheld stuff throughout myths and legends, and everyone worships them still. (Am I right, or am I right? I surprise myself sometimes.) Your book, your story, you get the role of "god".
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Joined: 11/17/2011
Posts: 1016
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I can't read all this right now, I'm at work, on my break.
I will reply at length tonight (I work the night shift. I get home at 2am) or else tomorrow. For now, let me say this:
Your characters will tell you what to do. Listen to your critters. They often are smarter than you are and (mine do, for sure) have minds of their own. If they don't, you haven't done them justice. They must be as alive as you or I.
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Joined: 6/7/2011
Posts: 467
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Toni.
I believe in giving your characters what they have been striving for. I'm rarely satisfied with books where the main purpose seems to be the thwarting of desire.
BUT...(I suppose you knew that was coming), I also think that the point of the book can never be as simple as consummation of desire. (Coincidentally, I spoke about this in my recent interview with Nevena in the "Writers" section regarding my book "The Flight of the Wren.") I gave my protagonist (a somewhat dreary and depressed high school girl) a gift: a magic carpet, which, of course represented the things that most young people hanker after -- freedom and independence.
But the story only begins there, because, along with freedom and independence comes things that she didn't anticipate: responsibility, mission, a community of others who she suddenly finds herself caring about.
We gods (writers) have a rare privilege. We can decide what happens to people who, hopefully, we have made real enough that other people (readers) actually care about. (An awkward sentence. So be it.) It's open to discussion, of course, but I think that every gift, every step forward, comes with a price. And often? It's the price that matters. I mean, really, who cares about some magic carpet? It's the connection to others that drives the story. A writer who soft-peddles the responsibility and the connection to others is short-changing reality, because ultimately, those are the things that stay with us.
No one can tell you what to do with your own story. Trust intuition.
And then write like hell.
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Joined: 11/17/2011
Posts: 1016
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I have read all the arguments, and my reply will be an intricate one, for my entire approach to storytelling is as far from yours and Alantis' a it can be.
I have no goal, nor do my characters. They bumble through life, as I do. I do not agonize over, what next? What happens, happens. I throw situations at my numbskulls to which they react, in character. Easy for me to say, my story is who they are. All the rest is incidental. I have no grand plan, no magic sword scenario. My story is personality, making a talking cat believable. That's a huge job in itself.
This is an interesting discussion, and especially pertinent because I am trying to stage-manage an episode right now, with no headway being made. I'd best take my own advice and let it go where it will. At this point, I don't have a clue where that will be. I know where I want it to go (sort of), but so far that ain't happening.
Working without a net, that's my process, thrills and chills aplenty. I don't recommend it, but I can't seem to write any other way.
I'll continue with this thought. I need some mulling-over time.
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Joined: 11/17/2011
Posts: 1016
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Readers, it seems, expect a plot, with a discernable goal, that goes somewhere at a reasonable pace within a reasonable period of time.
I treat my story as an elaborate character study, with incidents that illuminate soul and allow me to construct elaborate jokes. This was once acceptable, I believe. My work was compared to Laurence Sterne’s Tristram Shandy. I do see a lot of that flavor in my nonsense. Is that good? Hard to say. Tristram has a beguiling spirit, but it's a challenging read.
Sly! Is what it is, and I love what it is. Shit happens. Indeed it does. But it's shit that's meant to crack you up by letting Sly strut his stuff, so it isn't quite as focused as it might be on a progression of events. You insist on get-on-with-it doings? Look elsewhere. You'll settle for slo-mo zany fun? Sly's your guy.
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@Atlantis: (I can tell we are kindred ramblers, but with points to be made, lol) Everything you wrote here is great stuff! Wow, thanks! I am very impressed. I like the “open threads” viewpoint. “Does allowing the love to happen add to the story, take away from it, or makes no difference?” This is such a great question to ask! Seriously, I'm writing this in permanent marker on my desk.
Funny you mention kidnapping. I have two love subplots. Somebody does get kidnapped. The big bad holds a grudge against the Nyeena race (fairy descendants of the Tuatha) and he plans to drain the girl’s blood and use it as a weapon against them. The boy who loves her is a leath, half human/half Nyeena, which makes him unsuitable for the girl, who has royal lineage. The girl’s brother, her love interest and three badass priestesses (protectors of the treasures the big bad wants to use with the girl’s blood to unite their power) leave the human world for the Elida Realm to kick some bad guy ass (but once there, find out the Nyeena King has some dirty secrets, which creates big problems; he’s a real dick). So, I think I’m certain on the fate of these two lovebirds.
The other love subplot involves one of the priestesses (who are forbidden to fall in love) and the Nyeena warrior who trained her (he is in charge of the protection of the kidnapped girl and these treasures), and he’s all torn because of his duty, so he avoids her. She’s feisty and pissed at him about it all the time. These two are the pair I’m having trouble with. Their backstory makes my heart swoon, and I want to tell it in another book. And, after that ‘long-winded’ ramble, if you’re still with me, I think your question I pointed out above will help in deciding what to do. Oh boy, now you have my brain going round in circles, it’s getting dizzy. Lol!
As far as this story is concerned, I don’t have any of it posted yet. It’s one of my big projects, and I’m trying to work on developing my writing skills and finishing a few short stories. I only have part of one up so far, which is way different, sci-fi/satire. I admit, I’m a bit nervous. I’m new here, so I’m editing and re-editing to make sure I don’t sound like a dumbass. I’ll have to check out some of your work too. It sounds like you have a great set of established writing principles. I’m interested to see how you apply them.
The boyfriend’s response to my questions are always “Well, whatever you think [*I look at him annoyed waiting for a constructive critique*] I don’t know monkey! I’m an engineer not a writer. I guess it sounds great.”…“YOU GUESS???”…engineer’s are a breed of their own, but he does listen attentively when I read to him, so he gets brownies for that [but for some reason, he always thinks its about him in some way OR if I mention a hunky hottie, he gets jealous...that's right, jealous of my made up hunky hotties].
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@Mimi: “Listen to your critters.” That’s cute lol J “They must be as alive as you or I.” Love this! And, I’m opposite of you. I have to have a plan, or at least an outline which I can make adjustments to if something changes as I move along. I usually free write until I have an good idea developing, then I'll stop to create all the scenes before I write it. I give you props for going at it like a discovery process, which sounds very exciting, but with me, I feel I’ll just get lost. Maybe I’ll try that for a short story one day and see what happens J I like a good nonsensical story, I’ll check Sly out when I get a chance.
@Atthys: I soooo agree with you. The connections between the characters is what makes me fall in love with a story. (and of course the tension, but you have to care about the characters to feel the tension). When I'm reading, it doesn't matter how great the plot is, if the characters aren't human, I check out.
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Joined: 11/17/2011
Posts: 1016
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I can see why you don't want to wing it. It sounds like your plot is far more complicated than anything I've written.
Maybe it will be easier to follow when I'm actually reading it.
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Joined: 11/17/2011
Posts: 1016
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I see that I'm a Discovery writer. (See Elizabeth Moon's post in the discussion I sent you.)
I didn't know there was a name for it. I thought it was my own weird-ass way of writing, in lock-step with my weird-ass way of living my life.
Wow! That sounds so much better! I am a Discovery writer.
Impressive! Not, I write, and most of the time I don't know what I'm doing or where I'm going. I pray for happy accidents to show me the way.
When I'm in a spot, (like I am right now with my Elizabethan epic) I start reading, history, generally, looking for daylight. My current mess consists of too many villains populating an assassination plot against Queen E, and not enough for them to do. They're too charming to backtrack and rub out. I adore them all.
An answer will come to me by and by. It always does.
Moon's comments about the pitfalls of such an approach? I know them all too well.
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That's how I write, too.
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Lol, funny, glad you now know what to call yourself. Suppose, I'm an OCD Anal-Retentive Control Freak who will bring the wrath of God upon my characters if they don't follow their script. I need to loosen up and learn the ways of the Discovery writer...to a point, lol, I don't think I'll ever throw away my storyboards and character development charts.
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Joined: 5/27/2013
Posts: 108
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I am a bit jealous of all of you at the moment. I have so many things flowing around and wanting to join in the conversation, but vacation is making me crave the writing group. So everyone bear with me, I promise to jump in and join all of you once more.
Toni Smalley - your other is exactly like mine. I cannot win when it comes to getting criticism. Well except the jealous of my characters. She is jealous of the ladies I meet like on this site....Go figure. Even after we renewed the vows. But the great news there, I get to put that into a character in my writing, and we shall see if she perks her attention when that plays out. LOL
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Joined: 6/8/2013
Posts: 25
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I guess that must make me an OCD/Discover writer because I employ a combination of techniques. I don't give the characters everything they want. What would be the fun in that? Not to mention, who would believe it? On the other hand, I don't want to thwart them at every turn. I tend to have a basic idea about what is going to happen regarding the characters before I even put pen to paper (or the electronic equivalent); however, there are characters who seem to take matters into their own hands from time to time. Remarkably, I sometimes see their point and follow their lead. The hardest thing I've come across is having to kill off a character I really like, but sometimes it just has to be done.
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@Andrea: I like how you described the middle ground between OCD and Discover writer. That really puts the combination of the two in perspective. A goal I should strive toward.
@Alantis: I'm a big jealous you are on vacation. Lol, enjoy it!
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Joined: 5/27/2013
Posts: 108
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Alright, the vacation was good, but that isn't following of the thread.
It is interesting to see the different styles of writing for different people. As I read through, I realize I am Anal Retentive Control Freak, but I also like to let the story go. (I have a recycle bin full of chapters to prove that) I am not sure what the style becomes. I have actually reread some chapter I wrote and gotten into an argument with the screen yelling "Bullshyte, I call bullshyte!" So where do you actually classify yourself with a style? Often I sit to write a paragraph or chapter, and then I end up with 4-5 chapters of supporting storyline the characters felt were more important for the reader to know about in their lives. (Hence my love plots I am now stuck with)
And when it comes to killing characters......I have to start out with the knowledge that I could kill this character, or there is no way I could write that into being. I do have a couple of people who are destined to die horribly, but I seem to not give them as much life in my story telling. Maybe just another one of my shortcomings?
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Joined: 6/8/2013
Posts: 25
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Unfortunately - or fortunately, depending on how you look at it - I don't always know I'm going to have to kill someone off until the story is underway. That makes it really hard when I have to come up with their death. Sometimes I really like the character, even though I know they have to go.
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Joined: 5/27/2013
Posts: 108
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Well Andrea, I guess that would be either or. I put a lot of work into the characters I write, even though I am not a long standing "author" by any means But to have a character 'need' to die would throw me. I have characters I want to kill, since they seem to run away with the story, but wanting and doing are two different things entirely. I have come to a point in my few writings, where I am faced with whether I need to kill someone to make the story better or not, but fortunately for me, that hasn't had to be decided yet. Hopefully it isn't too painful?
Maybe if I give them everything they want, then I will have fulfilled their lives and killing them won't be so harsh?
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Joined: 6/8/2013
Posts: 25
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Oh it is painful when that happens. I guess I could just let it go, but then I think it would actually make the story less interesting. I think it's the "Hero's Journey" thing. The hero must go on alone or something to that effect. I'm dealing with it now in one of my stories and I am soooo close to letting him live . . . and yet??? We'll have to see.
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Joined: 3/13/2011
Posts: 412
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I generally start the story knowing what the MC is going to GET. Figuring out what they WANT, and how they'll react to not getting it comes as I write.
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Joined: 1/22/2013
Posts: 17
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Alexander,
So you start with plot, and then work on story (while tweaking plot) as you go. It's about what I do. --edited by Dennis Fleming on 6/24/2013, 5:08 PM--
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Alantis, that is too funny! Yelling at your screen. I should
try that instead of yelling at Mr. Potato Head…(sidenote: Tater is the face of
my subconscious, but I blame him for everything anyways). Mmmm, you consciously don’t give the characters you’ve
destined to die as much life in your stories. Wonder if you should try giving
them more life. It’ll hurt the reader more. Muahaha! You sound similar to Andrea. She posted above that she is in
the middle ground. An OCD/Discover writer. I’m trying to work my way into the
middle. I think it would help my writing to discover more. In this way, as I
write, I will provide more descriptions, because I won’t know what anything is
in the world I’ve created. In the series I’ve fleshed out, I’m so immersed in
the world of the story already, I sometimes forget to describe things, because I
already see everything so clearly in my mind.
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Alexander Hollins wrote:I generally start the story knowing what the MC is going to GET. Figuring out what they WANT, and how they'll react to not getting it comes as I write.
@Alexander: Interesting way to look at it. I suppose what
the MC ‘gets’ and what is they ‘want’ are two very different things. Sounds
like this would make the character more dynamic. And, now that I think about
it, there are many stories where the character sets out with the intention of
accomplishing a certain goal, and as the story evolves, their wishes change,
and they finally realize once they get what they want, it is no longer what
they truly wanted or isn’t what they expected. Very smart way to look at it.
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Joined: 6/8/2013
Posts: 25
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I think you're right, Toni. I found that a little bit of discovery allows me to view things from a different angle. I sometimes have a problem remembering that the reader doesn't have all the little bits of information I have. Changing it up as I go along helps me look at things with a reader's eye and hoopefully that makes me write better.
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I sometimes have a problem remembering that the reader doesn't have all the little bits of information I have
That right there. I'm so bad for that! My writing group gets on to me for that all the time! I'll just be writing along, content as can be, off in my own little world. Then I'll submit for critique, and the readers are like, Mari, what on earth is this? What does this mean? Where does this go?
This is one of the reasons I write longhand. Sometimes I can find and fix stuff like that when I read over it before I type it up. But, obviously, sometimes I skip right over it. Also, I'm one of those writers who doesn't believe in giving the reader information just because ... I mean, I write from close narrator point of view. If it's stuff the narrator doesn't know, it's not stuff I can put in there for any legitimate reason.
It's a vicious circle!
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MariAdkins wrote:
I'll just be writing along, content as can be, off in my own little world. Then I'll submit for critique, and the readers are like, Mari, what on earth is this?
Haha! That is me. I often live in my own little world, forgetting to describe all the things I see and understand.
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That's exactly right! LOL
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